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on this episode of skeptic Oh one of the

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world's leading experts on out-of-body

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experience Robert Bruce recently

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journalist Matt Bagley Oh published a

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book called the right the making of a

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modern Exorcist and what he found was

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really that despite the modern

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perception that they're just bringing

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people in to convert him to Christianity

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or converting to Catholicism it wasn't

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the case

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they have licensed therapists there they

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say 95% of these people are not

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demon-possessed but five percent of them

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are they have very specific criteria

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that they use they have unbelievable

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stories that this journalist has

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gathered and that these exorcists can

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attest to so this is a phenomena that is

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much more prevalent than I think most of

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us are willing to acknowledge or even

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look into I think most people just won't

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even examine the evidence for it hit the

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nail on the head that people don't want

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it to be true

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they don't want to know they avoid the

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information now to be a true scientist

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you need to be an open-minded skeptic

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you're open-minded but you're skeptical

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and you look at the evidence and you

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examine these phenomena or whatever it

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is until you start to understand it now

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I have that same approach and I approach

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this and not just with my own experience

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made it real to me

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you need their ounce of experience I

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mean anybody who doubts this and they

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should doubt it until they see it for

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themselves or experience it for

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themselves having a bit but when what

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you confront one demon or an evil spirit

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even a poltergeist a real one and you

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become a believer

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welcome to skeptical where we explore

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controversial science with leading

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researchers thinkers and their critics

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I'm your host Alex Karras and on this

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episode of skeptic oh I actually have a

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couple of really great interviews for

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you the first is with out-of-body

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experience expert who you just heard

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Robert Bruce fascinating hour-long

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dialogue I had with him is coming up in

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just a minute and the second is an

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interview that Andy Paquette did with

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Graham Nichols so two folks who you may

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be familiar with if you listen to this

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show before who also have this

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connection with out-of-body experience

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Andy in the form of dreaming and lucid

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dreaming and paranormal dreaming and

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Graham of course with his own

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out-of-body experience work so Andy has

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done this interview and it's really more

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of just a dialogue a sharing of thoughts

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between two people who have had this

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experience of being aware of things

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outside of this normal consciousness so

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it's really quite an interesting back

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and forth they talk about a lot of

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different aspects of their experience

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with it it's the kind of stuff that

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you're really not gonna find many other

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places but of course you're gonna find

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it here on skeptic oh and that's why I

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wanted to bring that to you that's going

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to be a link at the bottom of the show

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notes of this interview I don't have a

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transcript for it but it's it's quite a

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long interview that Andy did with Graham

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it's been hour and 20 minutes and that's

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there and I really encourage you to

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listen to that and we'll start a

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separate thread on the forum to discuss

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that so please check that out but in the

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meantime I want to bring you this

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interview that I had fascinating

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discussion with out-of-body experience

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expert Robert Bruce let me get right to

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that and then I have a couple of

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thoughts at the end

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here's that dialogue today we welcome

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world renowned out-of-body experience

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expert Robert Bruce - skeptic Oh Robert

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is the author of several best-selling

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books including the one he's

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probably best known for astral dynamics

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which is also the domain name where

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you'll find his excellent website astral

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dynamics calm

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he holds seminars around the world on

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out-of-body travel and spirituality and

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other related topics it's a pleasure to

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have you on Robert thanks for joining me

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on skeptic oh yes yes

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Robert you're known as an expert on

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primarily out-of-body experience what

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some people call astral projection you

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also have quite a bit to say about

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spirituality in general I read your

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first book

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astral dynamics I didn't quite make it

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all the way through it's a pretty big

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fat book but I was very impressed it's

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very practical

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a lot of step-by-step kind of

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instruction down-to-earth but but meaty

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not like it's light or anything like

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that packed with a lot of information

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tell folks a little bit about how you

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got started with all this I think it's

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quite an interesting story and it come

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as an Internet story as well isn't it

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didn't you really become kind of a forum

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internet sensation if you will or within

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a small community and then it kind of

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expanded out of there yeah

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like many people similar to myself

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everything I've written about including

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astronaut Alex and practical psychic

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self-defense energy work all those books

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are the things in them are things that I

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do myself have developed for myself

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over the years and the book suggests my

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way of just sharing with the world

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sharing what I do and yeah I got started

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when I was about three or four years of

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age but not when I started having

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out-of-body experiences and I used to

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float out of my body and float through

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the house and going outside and learning

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how to fly and working it out myself it

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seemed very natural even as a very

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and I progressed from there over the

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years and till I started taking it more

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seriously about the age of 20 when I

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started sitting down and actually

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thinking about what I was doing and

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trying to do it more deliberately and

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yeah I've just I've just gone from there

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and eventually many many years later I

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discovered the internet became friends

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with a lot of people and eventually I

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somehow accidentally became an author

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and an authority and there's people

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right that's how I that's how I heard

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the story you you you were just trying

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to help people online and posting a lot

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of stuff and eventually kept posting

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more and more stuff and people were like

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originally started out as in fact in a

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frequently asked questions when I

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discovered the Internet in the early to

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mid 90s I started hanging around

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out-of-body experience type gross and in

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those days it was on syntax based see :

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flash better back slash top left-hand

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corner and they had things they had nice

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graphics like

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out-of-body and lucid dreaming of

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various other things they're like forums

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are today but it's that was thought

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syntax based and I see people people

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kept asking me the same questions over

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and over again and so I got tired of

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writing the same replies and so I worked

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up in a canned answers for them I'm the

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most common things and eventually I put

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them together into collections and over

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the years and evolved and evolved and

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evolved until I mentioned the I wrote

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asked for dynamics which is now in its

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second edition which is much much better

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because I mean I was teaching myself how

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to write while I wrote my first edition

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astral dynamics which is pretty good but

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I tightened it up a lot

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added a lot new cup new content in the

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second edition which we released in 1990

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fans online for 10 year anniversary

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edition excellent so Robert you seem

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very skilled at what you do you're an

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excellent teacher good communicator and

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you're very generous with the

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information you give away if I remember

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this correctly you actually even give

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away the version one of or the original

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version of Astral dynamics in PDF form

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is that still available for a download

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I won't giving it away for some time

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because the first edition went out of

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print and won the second edition is now

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available I handed up I ended up as a

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freight down light for a while but I

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took it offline and my publishers in

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question sure sure

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well you give away a lot of stuff a lot

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of e-books and other material for free

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but I gotta say I had asked this

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question and I don't want to kind of

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poke at you here but if somebody visits

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astrodynamics dot-com expecting a lot of

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soft fluffy new-age soft sale they're

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gonna be kind of surprised because I

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mean you've definitely developed this

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internet oriented direct selling style

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of marketing in your material and you

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don't shy away from provocative titles

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like the truth about vampire demons and

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how to protect yourself from the evil

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attacks no matter how strong they are

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and this one I like to urgent video

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message I'm about to do something I

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swore I'd never do now look I want to

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know about vampire demons and how to

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protect yourself I really do I mean I

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think that's a fascinating topic to talk

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about but in order to get past that tell

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us a little bit about this marketing

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style I'm sure that's a little

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off-putting for some people I have a

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marketing manager of my partner-in-crime

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Timothy he lives in Pennsylvania is an

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awesome guy and his lifelong passion is

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internet marketing and we collaborate on

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a newsletter and his I wouldn't say

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responsible but guilty of the

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titles because he's a marketing expert

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and they're designed to attract

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attention because most people are asleep

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and it's difficult to get people's

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attention

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sure fair enough so let's jump right in

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to that title because I have to say if

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one gets past that provocative title

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again you have some good information I

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mean it's really out there on the edge

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for someone who's coming at this from

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kind of a mainstream standpoint if

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you're but if you jump into the reality

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of Autobody experience and I say reality

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it is pretty firmly established at this

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point I mean historically this has been

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reported for a long long time across

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cultures I mean people have said they've

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had this ability I don't know why we

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would be so doubtful of it and then I

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don't know why it would be we'd be

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especially doubtful of your claims so

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we're here to listen and to learn and

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then to assess whether or not we think

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it's true what about that what is the

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truth about vampire demons and how to

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protect yourself I know it's a topic

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you've spent a good deal of time

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covering okay in my book

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the practical psychic self-defense

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handbook which is a very practical guide

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to psychic self defense and even defense

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against vampire demons that you want to

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call them there are in in the book I

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generally call them necks for negative

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entities negative spirits that have an

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adverse reaction I downplay the name a

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little bit because when you start using

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00:12:44,710 --> 00:12:42,050
terms like demon and evil spirit it

277
00:12:47,140 --> 00:12:44,720
tends to upset people because

278
00:12:50,110 --> 00:12:47,150
particularly New Age type people because

279
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it goes against the grain but I mean I

280
00:12:58,600 --> 00:12:54,080
wrote that book the information in that

281
00:13:01,980 --> 00:12:58,610
book I should say came from my own quest

282
00:13:07,560 --> 00:13:01,990
for survival because I came under

283
00:13:11,430 --> 00:13:07,570
horrendous attacks myself in my

284
00:13:14,820 --> 00:13:11,440
thirty's and including full demonic

285
00:13:18,420 --> 00:13:14,830
attack and full possession

286
00:13:23,150 --> 00:13:18,430
I was demonically possessed for several

287
00:13:27,300 --> 00:13:23,160
weeks and I am the only person I know of

288
00:13:30,030 --> 00:13:27,310
ever who released themselves completely

289
00:13:32,580 --> 00:13:30,040
under their own steam I mean nobody

290
00:13:36,270 --> 00:13:32,590
would help me everybody considered that

291
00:13:37,800 --> 00:13:36,280
you know if you have a genuine problem

292
00:13:40,920 --> 00:13:37,810
like that you obviously have a

293
00:13:43,800 --> 00:13:40,930
psychological disorder and that didn't

294
00:13:46,430 --> 00:13:43,810
realize that it was real but when when

295
00:13:50,340 --> 00:13:46,440
the teachers and healers I went to

296
00:13:52,230 --> 00:13:50,350
realized it was genuine they did I

297
00:13:53,430 --> 00:13:52,240
stopped returning my calls they asked me

298
00:13:55,920 --> 00:13:53,440
to leave they didn't want me there

299
00:13:57,870 --> 00:13:55,930
because they don't have anything in

300
00:14:01,140 --> 00:13:57,880
their arsenal even in their belief

301
00:14:03,900 --> 00:14:01,150
system to accommodate that so you end up

302
00:14:05,690 --> 00:14:03,910
being ostracized or anybody who could

303
00:14:08,270 --> 00:14:05,700
possibly understand the way help you

304
00:14:10,830 --> 00:14:08,280
explain to folks how you came about

305
00:14:12,930 --> 00:14:10,840
being possessed and we're just gonna

306
00:14:14,520 --> 00:14:12,940
kind of accept that for a second and

307
00:14:15,900 --> 00:14:14,530
then let's deconstruct it a little bit

308
00:14:16,530 --> 00:14:15,910
with some more questions but how did

309
00:14:19,050 --> 00:14:16,540
that happen

310
00:14:21,690 --> 00:14:19,060
well I was giving healing I worked as a

311
00:14:24,840 --> 00:14:21,700
healer for many years and I was giving

312
00:14:27,960 --> 00:14:24,850
healing to a five year old boy that had

313
00:14:31,110 --> 00:14:27,970
a serious possession problem there at

314
00:14:34,170 --> 00:14:31,120
the time even though I saw that and I

315
00:14:38,610 --> 00:14:34,180
saw all the phenomena and this kid's

316
00:14:40,470 --> 00:14:38,620
life was in turmoil around him and even

317
00:14:42,810 --> 00:14:40,480
though I saw that I never really

318
00:14:46,910 --> 00:14:42,820
connected to it because like most people

319
00:14:49,830 --> 00:14:46,920
in the New Age spiritual type movement

320
00:14:53,100 --> 00:14:49,840
they're worthy of cause of that or not I

321
00:14:55,530 --> 00:14:53,110
had never experienced it myself I you

322
00:14:58,920 --> 00:14:55,540
know worked as a healer I had lots of he

323
00:15:01,890 --> 00:14:58,930
people come to me regularly and who had

324
00:15:03,960 --> 00:15:01,900
that type of problem but I had very

325
00:15:06,360 --> 00:15:03,970
little by wire frame of reference to it

326
00:15:09,420 --> 00:15:06,370
to connect to that until it happened to

327
00:15:11,450 --> 00:15:09,430
me and what happened was and looking

328
00:15:14,040 --> 00:15:11,460
back on it now I can see it was a

329
00:15:17,040 --> 00:15:14,050
brilliant learning experience that

330
00:15:19,040 --> 00:15:17,050
completely changed my reality and you

331
00:15:22,400 --> 00:15:19,050
could say took me firmly

332
00:15:24,259 --> 00:15:22,410
to the greater reality it's like being a

333
00:15:26,540 --> 00:15:24,269
child and your father throwing you in

334
00:15:28,699 --> 00:15:26,550
the deep end and the swimming pool as

335
00:15:30,320 --> 00:15:28,709
your first swimming lesson inside you

336
00:15:35,000 --> 00:15:30,330
think we address it's when were you

337
00:15:38,569 --> 00:15:35,010
drown it was like that and I I've been

338
00:15:42,019 --> 00:15:38,579
giving healing to this child for some

339
00:15:47,060 --> 00:15:42,029
time and many many sessions and one

340
00:15:49,490 --> 00:15:47,070
session and I in frustration I made a

341
00:15:54,500 --> 00:15:49,500
terrible mistake which I don't recommend

342
00:15:58,100 --> 00:15:54,510
and I said to the child well to the

343
00:16:01,360 --> 00:15:58,110
entity that was inside demonizing the

344
00:16:05,750 --> 00:16:01,370
child I said take me and leave the child

345
00:16:08,240 --> 00:16:05,760
after the deal and it did instantly it

346
00:16:11,930 --> 00:16:08,250
was like being hit in the mouth with a

347
00:16:14,660 --> 00:16:11,940
boxer now where it hit me and literally

348
00:16:16,550 --> 00:16:14,670
hit me in the mouth I was paralyzed I

349
00:16:18,530 --> 00:16:16,560
felt like a blow in the mouth

350
00:16:21,860 --> 00:16:18,540
particularly the lower lip on the right

351
00:16:24,769 --> 00:16:21,870
and a swelling came up and I was

352
00:16:27,920 --> 00:16:24,779
paralyzed in my chair for several

353
00:16:29,930 --> 00:16:27,930
minutes and I could only say like even

354
00:16:32,900 --> 00:16:29,940
like being tortured it was like my body

355
00:16:36,769 --> 00:16:32,910
was in a mechanical device being crushed

356
00:16:39,470 --> 00:16:36,779
now after that I collapsed on the floor

357
00:16:42,949 --> 00:16:39,480
and clean myself up and I felt okay and

358
00:16:45,410 --> 00:16:42,959
that swelling in my lip was still there

359
00:16:48,500 --> 00:16:45,420
like I'd actually been punched well I

360
00:16:51,230 --> 00:16:48,510
had a fat lemon now I will next few days

361
00:16:54,500 --> 00:16:51,240
that quickly hardened into a brittle II

362
00:17:00,380 --> 00:16:54,510
love about the size of a shelled peanut

363
00:17:02,840 --> 00:17:00,390
in my lip and the the long story short I

364
00:17:05,329 --> 00:17:02,850
am it takes me about an hour to tell

365
00:17:10,490 --> 00:17:05,339
this story properly to do a justice I

366
00:17:14,809 --> 00:17:10,500
was because nobody could help me I the

367
00:17:17,929 --> 00:17:14,819
only option I had was either to go and

368
00:17:19,819 --> 00:17:17,939
get myself medicated locked up because I

369
00:17:20,569 --> 00:17:19,829
was about to become something like an

370
00:17:23,600 --> 00:17:20,579
axe murderer

371
00:17:26,630 --> 00:17:23,610
I was progressively losing control of my

372
00:17:28,069 --> 00:17:26,640
body I mean my hand would lash out pick

373
00:17:31,740 --> 00:17:28,079
something up and throw it against the

374
00:17:34,950 --> 00:17:31,750
wall my foot would lash out and kick my

375
00:17:37,169 --> 00:17:34,960
the labrador blue boy things like that

376
00:17:40,950 --> 00:17:37,179
were happening until they got incredibly

377
00:17:43,529 --> 00:17:40,960
serious and I actually had some couple

378
00:17:46,289 --> 00:17:43,539
of complete lawsuits and control where I

379
00:17:48,779 --> 00:17:46,299
was pushed half out of my body fully

380
00:17:51,450 --> 00:17:48,789
aware of what's happening but powerless

381
00:17:53,940 --> 00:17:51,460
it's like freewheeling you know it was

382
00:17:56,250 --> 00:17:53,950
like it's like floating in the water on

383
00:17:58,049 --> 00:17:56,260
trying to walk you know your body in the

384
00:18:01,590 --> 00:17:58,059
legs move but you're done you don't walk

385
00:18:02,960 --> 00:18:01,600
you don't move there's no traction it

386
00:18:06,720 --> 00:18:02,970
picked up my baby

387
00:18:08,789 --> 00:18:06,730
both son James who was about nine months

388
00:18:11,070 --> 00:18:08,799
old at the time and marched me to the

389
00:18:12,419 --> 00:18:11,080
edge of a roof story car park I was

390
00:18:14,549 --> 00:18:12,429
about ten floors up

391
00:18:17,070 --> 00:18:14,559
and was going to throw the baby off the

392
00:18:20,520 --> 00:18:17,080
roof then I managed to break out of that

393
00:18:23,039 --> 00:18:20,530
just before I got to the edge then I

394
00:18:25,560 --> 00:18:23,049
didn't trust myself anymore I moved to

395
00:18:28,500 --> 00:18:25,570
my mother's old place and stayed there

396
00:18:31,560 --> 00:18:28,510
on my own and I had no choice but I had

397
00:18:34,529 --> 00:18:31,570
to connect with the greater reality my

398
00:18:36,180 --> 00:18:34,539
higher self right now I had no I had no

399
00:18:39,600 --> 00:18:36,190
time to wait I had to do it right now

400
00:18:41,640 --> 00:18:39,610
right on that day and so I started

401
00:18:43,830 --> 00:18:41,650
trying to work with impressions I was

402
00:18:47,909 --> 00:18:43,840
getting and I've got this crazy

403
00:18:50,490 --> 00:18:47,919
impression but I promise to follow it no

404
00:18:52,380 --> 00:18:50,500
matter what came into my head I got this

405
00:18:54,930 --> 00:18:52,390
impression to walk out and into the

406
00:18:58,799 --> 00:18:54,940
storm there was a thunderstorm at the

407
00:19:00,720 --> 00:18:58,809
time and I walked off into the storm for

408
00:19:04,080 --> 00:19:00,730
half an hour nearly froze to death and

409
00:19:06,630 --> 00:19:04,090
fell over and I found this scrap of

410
00:19:08,880 --> 00:19:06,640
paper which I thought was like a message

411
00:19:11,789 --> 00:19:08,890
I'm trying to work you know walk walk

412
00:19:15,210 --> 00:19:11,799
here and the message just had a few

413
00:19:16,950 --> 00:19:15,220
words on it and and it guided me to a

414
00:19:20,310 --> 00:19:16,960
place in the wilderness here called

415
00:19:23,909 --> 00:19:20,320
Jared R and which is very very harsh

416
00:19:28,649 --> 00:19:23,919
scrub a bit like the Kalahari and no

417
00:19:31,049 --> 00:19:28,659
ground water and I went out there for a

418
00:19:31,590 --> 00:19:31,059
week not camping just sleeping on the

419
00:19:35,610 --> 00:19:31,600
ground

420
00:19:39,000 --> 00:19:35,620
I had no food I was fasting and I ran

421
00:19:42,140 --> 00:19:39,010
under water on the second diet and that

422
00:19:45,169 --> 00:19:42,150
was crucial I I nearly died

423
00:19:48,380 --> 00:19:45,179
but I had to make a decision to not go

424
00:19:50,210 --> 00:19:48,390
back and get water the few miles walk it

425
00:19:53,390 --> 00:19:50,220
would have been but to stay there and

426
00:19:56,360 --> 00:19:53,400
see it for even if I died and that was

427
00:19:59,419 --> 00:19:56,370
when Sherlock to cut a long story short

428
00:20:03,700 --> 00:19:59,429
there was a lot of phenomena around me a

429
00:20:06,380 --> 00:20:03,710
lot of manifestations and then on the

430
00:20:09,200 --> 00:20:06,390
fourth or fifth day I think it was I

431
00:20:12,380 --> 00:20:09,210
woke up in the morning and I the

432
00:20:15,470 --> 00:20:12,390
possession just lifted it was just on

433
00:20:17,630 --> 00:20:15,480
the on dawn and I was walking down to

434
00:20:20,210 --> 00:20:17,640
this tiny little spring like found to

435
00:20:23,450 --> 00:20:20,220
get some water and as the first rays of

436
00:20:25,909 --> 00:20:23,460
the Sun hit me it this thing completely

437
00:20:29,120 --> 00:20:25,919
left me I felt this huge white come up

438
00:20:32,870 --> 00:20:29,130
me but as it came off of me that thing

439
00:20:35,180 --> 00:20:32,880
in my mouth exploded literally it burst

440
00:20:37,520 --> 00:20:35,190
in my mouth and I'd hundreds of pieces

441
00:20:41,930 --> 00:20:37,530
of like busted gristle and a big hole in

442
00:20:44,539 --> 00:20:41,940
my lip and now years later after

443
00:20:48,130 --> 00:20:44,549
releasing myself like that I put it all

444
00:20:51,169 --> 00:20:48,140
together and the primary you could say

445
00:20:53,690 --> 00:20:51,179
factor involved in my release but there

446
00:20:56,419 --> 00:20:53,700
was the fact that I was sleeping on top

447
00:20:58,610 --> 00:20:56,429
of an underground spring there was an

448
00:21:01,310 --> 00:20:58,620
underground stream coming out of the

449
00:21:03,860 --> 00:21:01,320
hill going to that little spring I'd

450
00:21:05,960 --> 00:21:03,870
found which was about 80 yards from

451
00:21:08,690 --> 00:21:05,970
where I'll be sleeping downhill so I was

452
00:21:11,600 --> 00:21:08,700
run on top of it and over the years

453
00:21:15,190 --> 00:21:11,610
later on more coincidences led me till

454
00:21:18,409 --> 00:21:15,200
the realisation a few years later that

455
00:21:21,049 --> 00:21:18,419
the earthbound type spirits whatever you

456
00:21:22,700 --> 00:21:21,059
want to call them literally bound on the

457
00:21:25,310 --> 00:21:22,710
surface of the earth and they cannot

458
00:21:29,090 --> 00:21:25,320
cross running water running water is

459
00:21:32,419 --> 00:21:29,100
extremely disrupted RuPt it to them

460
00:21:34,820 --> 00:21:32,429
damaging to them and it will also if you

461
00:21:37,310 --> 00:21:34,830
expose yourself and rough to those types

462
00:21:40,100 --> 00:21:37,320
of energies which includes electrical

463
00:21:43,190 --> 00:21:40,110
earthing you will release yourself from

464
00:21:45,650 --> 00:21:43,200
that type of entity and that led me to

465
00:21:50,360 --> 00:21:45,660
write the book on it eventually I made

466
00:21:53,860 --> 00:21:50,370
the there there is a corner saga leading

467
00:21:55,810 --> 00:21:53,870
to my discovery of these things but that

468
00:21:58,120 --> 00:21:55,820
why the book is called practical psychic

469
00:21:59,799 --> 00:21:58,130
self defense it's very practical the

470
00:22:03,610 --> 00:21:59,809
techniques in their work they're very

471
00:22:06,159 --> 00:22:03,620
effective and for example did only I've

472
00:22:09,750 --> 00:22:06,169
learned that if you come under an attack

473
00:22:13,060 --> 00:22:09,760
of any kind even the most horrific

474
00:22:15,760 --> 00:22:13,070
demonic attack vampire demon attack that

475
00:22:18,340 --> 00:22:15,770
you could possibly get if you jump in

476
00:22:21,130 --> 00:22:18,350
the shower you will break it instantly

477
00:22:23,769 --> 00:22:21,140
you break you break the attack but if

478
00:22:25,840 --> 00:22:23,779
you don't know that and you just go back

479
00:22:28,029 --> 00:22:25,850
to bed and or go and sleep on the couch

480
00:22:30,220 --> 00:22:28,039
and put up with the attack it will

481
00:22:32,529 --> 00:22:30,230
infiltrate you or you could say your

482
00:22:34,649 --> 00:22:32,539
energy body and the possession would

483
00:22:38,110 --> 00:22:34,659
become progressively more and more

484
00:22:40,360 --> 00:22:38,120
dangerous and controlling but there are

485
00:22:42,669 --> 00:22:40,370
ways to break it if you know the signs

486
00:22:45,970 --> 00:22:42,679
what to look for and what to do battle

487
00:22:48,970 --> 00:22:45,980
without that story of course to anyone

488
00:22:51,130 --> 00:22:48,980
who isn't kind of well into this stuff

489
00:22:52,870 --> 00:22:51,140
is going to find some very strange very

490
00:22:56,139 --> 00:22:52,880
far out there and one of the things I

491
00:22:58,120 --> 00:22:56,149
like to do is connect all my guests to

492
00:23:00,130 --> 00:22:58,130
both former guests that I've had on and

493
00:23:01,779 --> 00:23:00,140
other events that are happening in the

494
00:23:04,630 --> 00:23:01,789
news and one thing I guess I'd point to

495
00:23:06,669 --> 00:23:04,640
here is you know recently journalist

496
00:23:08,620 --> 00:23:06,679
Matt Bagley Oh published a book called

497
00:23:11,230 --> 00:23:08,630
the write the making of a modern

498
00:23:13,149 --> 00:23:11,240
Exorcist and what he did is he went to

499
00:23:16,690 --> 00:23:13,159
Rome and actually went to the school

500
00:23:19,180 --> 00:23:16,700
where the Vatican instructs priests in

501
00:23:21,930 --> 00:23:19,190
how to perform exorcisms and he sat in

502
00:23:25,149 --> 00:23:21,940
on dozens and dozens of exorcisms and

503
00:23:28,240 --> 00:23:25,159
what he found was really that one

504
00:23:30,250 --> 00:23:28,250
despite the modern perception that

505
00:23:32,230 --> 00:23:30,260
they're just bringing people in to

506
00:23:34,539 --> 00:23:32,240
convert him to Christianity or convert

507
00:23:36,460 --> 00:23:34,549
to Catholicism it wasn't the case they

508
00:23:39,539 --> 00:23:36,470
have licensed therapists there they say

509
00:23:43,090 --> 00:23:39,549
95% of these people are not

510
00:23:46,450 --> 00:23:43,100
demon-possessed but five percent of them

511
00:23:48,789 --> 00:23:46,460
are they have very specific criteria

512
00:23:51,730 --> 00:23:48,799
that they use they have unbelievable

513
00:23:54,010 --> 00:23:51,740
stories that this journalist is gathered

514
00:23:57,279 --> 00:23:54,020
and that these exercise exercise can

515
00:24:00,760 --> 00:23:57,289
attest to so this is a phenomena that

516
00:24:03,279 --> 00:24:00,770
that is much more I don't want to say

517
00:24:06,330 --> 00:24:03,289
well-known but but much more prevalent

518
00:24:08,580 --> 00:24:06,340
than I think most of us are willing to

519
00:24:11,430 --> 00:24:08,590
to acknowledge or even look into I think

520
00:24:13,830 --> 00:24:11,440
most people just won't even examine the

521
00:24:16,140 --> 00:24:13,840
evidence for it hit the nail on the head

522
00:24:18,960 --> 00:24:16,150
there people don't want it to be true

523
00:24:21,659 --> 00:24:18,970
but don't want to know they avoid the

524
00:24:25,529 --> 00:24:21,669
information now to be a true scientist

525
00:24:28,529 --> 00:24:25,539
you need to be an open-minded skeptic

526
00:24:30,630 --> 00:24:28,539
I mean open-minded skepticism is pure

527
00:24:32,310 --> 00:24:30,640
science you open-minded but you

528
00:24:35,399 --> 00:24:32,320
skeptical and you look at the evidence

529
00:24:36,779 --> 00:24:35,409
and you examine these the phenomena or

530
00:24:39,450 --> 00:24:36,789
whatever it is until you start to

531
00:24:42,240 --> 00:24:39,460
understand it now I have that same

532
00:24:44,580 --> 00:24:42,250
approach and I approach this and not

533
00:24:47,190 --> 00:24:44,590
just with my own experience made it real

534
00:24:50,070 --> 00:24:47,200
to me you need their ounce of experience

535
00:24:51,930 --> 00:24:50,080
timing anybody who doubts this and they

536
00:24:54,299 --> 00:24:51,940
should doubt it until they see the app

537
00:24:56,250 --> 00:24:54,309
to see it for themselves or experience

538
00:25:00,060 --> 00:24:56,260
it for themselves having a bit

539
00:25:03,570 --> 00:25:00,070
it it's like but when what you confront

540
00:25:07,080 --> 00:25:03,580
one demon or an evil spirit even a

541
00:25:09,510 --> 00:25:07,090
poltergeist a real one and you become a

542
00:25:12,000 --> 00:25:09,520
believer but you have to have personal

543
00:25:15,630 --> 00:25:12,010
experience with it until then I advise

544
00:25:18,330 --> 00:25:15,640
everybody open-minded skepticism but I

545
00:25:19,760 --> 00:25:18,340
also advise people that my book because

546
00:25:22,169 --> 00:25:19,770
it is so practical

547
00:25:23,850 --> 00:25:22,179
the practical psychic self defense

548
00:25:25,740 --> 00:25:23,860
handbook that should be taught in

549
00:25:28,350 --> 00:25:25,750
primary school and you're like great

550
00:25:31,019 --> 00:25:28,360
fight I agree with you I mean it sure

551
00:25:33,930 --> 00:25:31,029
wouldn't hurt to have that information

552
00:25:36,600 --> 00:25:33,940
in the back of your mind even if you

553
00:25:38,880 --> 00:25:36,610
don't believe it to know that it's there

554
00:25:40,529 --> 00:25:38,890
if you need it but I want to take this

555
00:25:43,889 --> 00:25:40,539
in a different direction because I've

556
00:25:48,060 --> 00:25:43,899
had a couple of out-of-body experience

557
00:25:50,820 --> 00:25:48,070
travelers also authors very qualified

558
00:25:53,700 --> 00:25:50,830
people as near as I can tell on the show

559
00:25:55,680 --> 00:25:53,710
and one of the things that kind of

560
00:25:57,690 --> 00:25:55,690
troubles me all the time are the

561
00:25:59,190 --> 00:25:57,700
discrepancies and so maybe they're not

562
00:26:01,649 --> 00:25:59,200
discrepancies maybe that's the wrong

563
00:26:04,980 --> 00:26:01,659
word but there's some variations in

564
00:26:07,019 --> 00:26:04,990
approach variations in worldview that I

565
00:26:08,820 --> 00:26:07,029
wanted to bounce off of you and see if

566
00:26:10,860 --> 00:26:08,830
we can kind of figure out what's going

567
00:26:12,930 --> 00:26:10,870
on but one of the persons I had I knew I

568
00:26:15,510 --> 00:26:12,940
really liked I was impressed with is a

569
00:26:17,190 --> 00:26:15,520
woman named Marilyn Hughes and she runs

570
00:26:18,149 --> 00:26:17,200
something called the out-of-body

571
00:26:20,250 --> 00:26:18,159
experience

572
00:26:23,970 --> 00:26:20,260
Institute and Marilyn actually came

573
00:26:27,030 --> 00:26:23,980
the show is part of a on-air experiment

574
00:26:29,100 --> 00:26:27,040
we were doing on mediumship and she said

575
00:26:30,930 --> 00:26:29,110
well I'm not a medium on an out-of-body

576
00:26:34,409 --> 00:26:30,940
experience traveler but I'll help you

577
00:26:37,590 --> 00:26:34,419
with your experiment we had a woman who

578
00:26:39,810 --> 00:26:37,600
had lost a daughter who was away at

579
00:26:42,270 --> 00:26:39,820
college she was suffering greatly I

580
00:26:45,710 --> 00:26:42,280
served as the proxy sitter for this

581
00:26:48,990 --> 00:26:45,720
woman and Marilyn did this reading and

582
00:26:51,720 --> 00:26:49,000
Marilyn's explanation of what she does

583
00:26:54,600 --> 00:26:51,730
is that she goes to these other realms

584
00:26:58,830 --> 00:26:54,610
and she feels like it's her mission in

585
00:27:02,640 --> 00:26:58,840
particular to help souls or spirits that

586
00:27:06,120 --> 00:27:02,650
are in a bad place in this other realm

587
00:27:08,580 --> 00:27:06,130
and help them transition that's her

588
00:27:10,919 --> 00:27:08,590
claim but I have to say and anyone can

589
00:27:13,140 --> 00:27:10,929
go back and listen to this episode she

590
00:27:17,100 --> 00:27:13,150
was spot on and she gave a tremendous

591
00:27:20,400 --> 00:27:17,110
reading and gave more importantly gave a

592
00:27:23,580 --> 00:27:20,410
real sense of relief in closure to this

593
00:27:25,799 --> 00:27:23,590
mom who had lost her daughter here's the

594
00:27:29,610 --> 00:27:25,809
interesting thing about Marilyn Marilyn

595
00:27:33,659 --> 00:27:29,620
is a Christian she's very oriented

596
00:27:37,110 --> 00:27:33,669
towards a Christian outlook towards

597
00:27:39,840 --> 00:27:37,120
Jesus and angels helping her and guiding

598
00:27:42,770 --> 00:27:39,850
her she's not close to other religions

599
00:27:45,780 --> 00:27:42,780
but again her primary focus is

600
00:27:47,640 --> 00:27:45,790
Christianity now I noticed in the

601
00:27:51,299 --> 00:27:47,650
account that you gave one thing that I

602
00:27:53,820 --> 00:27:51,309
think was conspicuously absent for a lot

603
00:27:57,900 --> 00:27:53,830
of people would be any mention on your

604
00:28:02,789 --> 00:27:57,910
part of any kind of religious figure or

605
00:28:05,580 --> 00:28:02,799
even angelic or divine figure in that

606
00:28:07,680 --> 00:28:05,590
equation at all sort that out for us

607
00:28:10,350 --> 00:28:07,690
what's your best understanding of how

608
00:28:12,980 --> 00:28:10,360
that aspect of this works the

609
00:28:15,659 --> 00:28:12,990
out-of-body experience you'll find

610
00:28:18,450 --> 00:28:15,669
everybody people like it that later you

611
00:28:20,520 --> 00:28:18,460
describe there they tend to they have

612
00:28:23,340 --> 00:28:20,530
this phenomena occurring a demonic

613
00:28:26,280 --> 00:28:23,350
spirits often from a child but their

614
00:28:28,140 --> 00:28:26,290
religious training is different than

615
00:28:30,720 --> 00:28:28,150
doesn't allow that so what they do is

616
00:28:32,430 --> 00:28:30,730
they bend their belief system their

617
00:28:34,890 --> 00:28:32,440
Christianity if you like

618
00:28:37,560 --> 00:28:34,900
they wrap it around it to include the

619
00:28:39,920 --> 00:28:37,570
phenomena but you'll find the the

620
00:28:43,380 --> 00:28:39,930
question bias will affect the experience

621
00:28:46,860 --> 00:28:43,390
so you will tend to have more of a

622
00:28:50,040 --> 00:28:46,870
question type thing if you like it

623
00:28:54,840 --> 00:28:50,050
applied to it now you're in a very very

624
00:28:57,960 --> 00:28:54,850
fluid subtle environment when your outer

625
00:29:00,870 --> 00:28:57,970
body which is affected by your beliefs

626
00:29:03,780 --> 00:29:00,880
and your thoughts I mean your mind is

627
00:29:07,980 --> 00:29:03,790
very very powerful at which is unleashed

628
00:29:11,010 --> 00:29:07,990
in the outer body environment and you

629
00:29:12,570 --> 00:29:11,020
can create things there and you can

630
00:29:15,030 --> 00:29:12,580
influence the environment there

631
00:29:16,770 --> 00:29:15,040
depending on which type of experience

632
00:29:20,760 --> 00:29:16,780
you'll have there's a gradient of

633
00:29:22,770 --> 00:29:20,770
experience from hard real time after

634
00:29:25,920 --> 00:29:22,780
projection where you are like a ghost in

635
00:29:28,650 --> 00:29:25,930
the real world up to the higher astral

636
00:29:31,740 --> 00:29:28,660
planes where the environment you're in

637
00:29:34,650 --> 00:29:31,750
bears no resemblance to the whole

638
00:29:36,480 --> 00:29:34,660
physical reality but there is a gradient

639
00:29:40,050 --> 00:29:36,490
of them and that explains the

640
00:29:41,790 --> 00:29:40,060
differences in the experience on on the

641
00:29:45,780 --> 00:29:41,800
centre the environment is being

642
00:29:48,540 --> 00:29:45,790
different and I liken it to this if you

643
00:29:51,570 --> 00:29:48,550
imagine pure astral projection is a

644
00:29:54,450 --> 00:29:51,580
projection of the flesh of your body of

645
00:29:57,870 --> 00:29:54,460
the substance of your body and this is

646
00:30:00,060 --> 00:29:57,880
supported by the many years of work the

647
00:30:03,020 --> 00:30:00,070
thousand the people I've worked with and

648
00:30:05,460 --> 00:30:03,030
my own experience where when you are

649
00:30:09,180 --> 00:30:05,470
coming out of your body during a

650
00:30:12,240 --> 00:30:09,190
conscious astral projection exit during

651
00:30:15,210 --> 00:30:12,250
a separation you will sometimes find you

652
00:30:18,240 --> 00:30:15,220
a stuck at one part of your body you

653
00:30:22,170 --> 00:30:18,250
might be stuck at the left wrist and

654
00:30:25,650 --> 00:30:22,180
hand you might be stuck at the mouth the

655
00:30:28,470 --> 00:30:25,660
head the stomach or maybe a leg and if

656
00:30:31,290 --> 00:30:28,480
you you're very aware of being out of

657
00:30:33,870 --> 00:30:31,300
body you can see out of body as well see

658
00:30:36,180 --> 00:30:33,880
around you even though it's dark and you

659
00:30:38,640 --> 00:30:36,190
may be stuck say at the wrist now if you

660
00:30:42,210 --> 00:30:38,650
pull hard on that to try and finish the

661
00:30:44,250 --> 00:30:42,220
separation it really hurts so you give

662
00:30:46,090 --> 00:30:44,260
up on that pretty quickly but there's

663
00:30:49,570 --> 00:30:46,100
something there stopping you

664
00:30:52,600 --> 00:30:49,580
it's like that area hasn't like you get

665
00:30:55,720 --> 00:30:52,610
like a whole body vibration with real

666
00:30:58,240 --> 00:30:55,730
time after projection and it's like that

667
00:31:01,060 --> 00:30:58,250
part hasn't vibrated enough to generate

668
00:31:03,490 --> 00:31:01,070
the astral body in their area but if you

669
00:31:06,760 --> 00:31:03,500
examine these areas where you're stuck

670
00:31:09,340 --> 00:31:06,770
at you will usually if not always find

671
00:31:12,549 --> 00:31:09,350
something different about it a person is

672
00:31:15,430 --> 00:31:12,559
wearing a bracelet or watch or a ring

673
00:31:17,560 --> 00:31:15,440
that they haven't had for very long they

674
00:31:20,260 --> 00:31:17,570
may have had like in the case of being

675
00:31:22,990 --> 00:31:20,270
stuck at the mouth it consistently the

676
00:31:25,120 --> 00:31:23,000
first question that I ask is with

677
00:31:27,360 --> 00:31:25,130
problem solving things like that have

678
00:31:30,310 --> 00:31:27,370
you had any new dental work and

679
00:31:32,710 --> 00:31:30,320
invariably really the question is yes I

680
00:31:35,860 --> 00:31:32,720
had a bridge to put in a couple of weeks

681
00:31:37,630 --> 00:31:35,870
back and anything new in the body can

682
00:31:39,640 --> 00:31:37,640
take several weeks away with a few

683
00:31:42,370 --> 00:31:39,650
months for the body you could say to

684
00:31:45,000 --> 00:31:42,380
acclimatize to it and being stuck at the

685
00:31:47,620 --> 00:31:45,010
stomach is cause food content it has

686
00:31:49,720 --> 00:31:47,630
what you eat and what your stomach

687
00:31:52,330 --> 00:31:49,730
content is has an effect on astral

688
00:31:55,450 --> 00:31:52,340
projection and can cause problems with

689
00:31:57,399 --> 00:31:55,460
that type of exit now the astral

690
00:31:59,169 --> 00:31:57,409
projection you could say at the other

691
00:32:02,110 --> 00:31:59,179
end of the spectrum there was a mental

692
00:32:05,140 --> 00:32:02,120
projection which is relates to dreaming

693
00:32:07,840 --> 00:32:05,150
lucid dreaming and way conduce lucid

694
00:32:09,610 --> 00:32:07,850
dreaming which is like a conscious exit

695
00:32:12,340 --> 00:32:09,620
directly in what they call the dream

696
00:32:15,909 --> 00:32:12,350
environment but that is to me logically

697
00:32:18,490 --> 00:32:15,919
and obviously a mental projection which

698
00:32:20,890 --> 00:32:18,500
is in you could say a a finer more

699
00:32:23,560 --> 00:32:20,900
mental sort of a realm but now what you

700
00:32:26,830 --> 00:32:23,570
get typically is you have a gradient

701
00:32:28,899 --> 00:32:26,840
between way conducive lucid dreaming

702
00:32:32,470 --> 00:32:28,909
which is probably the most powerful

703
00:32:34,060 --> 00:32:32,480
experience you can have and pure real

704
00:32:36,700 --> 00:32:34,070
time astral projection

705
00:32:40,029 --> 00:32:36,710
there was a gradient and a mixture that

706
00:32:42,190 --> 00:32:40,039
has a percentage of the astral body in

707
00:32:44,590 --> 00:32:42,200
it and a percentage of the mental body

708
00:32:48,850 --> 00:32:44,600
in it and depending on what that ratio

709
00:32:50,740 --> 00:32:48,860
is the experience is a different in it

710
00:32:53,350 --> 00:32:50,750
if there was a gradient in being

711
00:32:56,230 --> 00:32:53,360
slightly different if you get a 50-50

712
00:32:58,600 --> 00:32:56,240
mix you are have a pretty typical astral

713
00:32:59,320 --> 00:32:58,610
projection in the astral planes if you

714
00:33:06,910 --> 00:32:59,330
have

715
00:33:09,340 --> 00:33:06,920
you'll find you'll be more in the you

716
00:33:12,100 --> 00:33:09,350
can say the mental planes it's more like

717
00:33:14,340 --> 00:33:12,110
the lucid dreaming than it is astral

718
00:33:19,390 --> 00:33:14,350
projection and the other way of course

719
00:33:21,820 --> 00:33:19,400
75% a store and 25% mental you find it's

720
00:33:24,610 --> 00:33:21,830
the experience is different again it's

721
00:33:26,440 --> 00:33:24,620
close to the physical reality and you

722
00:33:29,020 --> 00:33:26,450
also you'll find when you have more

723
00:33:32,200 --> 00:33:29,030
astral there it's like you've left half

724
00:33:34,450 --> 00:33:32,210
your mind behind you'll forget any plans

725
00:33:38,140 --> 00:33:34,460
you had you'll find the experience

726
00:33:40,840 --> 00:33:38,150
itself is different and you feel yeah

727
00:33:43,200 --> 00:33:40,850
it's more there's less mind and then

728
00:33:45,850 --> 00:33:43,210
it's more difficult to remember as well

729
00:33:47,650 --> 00:33:45,860
so that's great and this will give

730
00:33:51,670 --> 00:33:47,660
people a sense for the kind of very

731
00:33:53,140 --> 00:33:51,680
practical down-to-earth information that

732
00:33:54,580 --> 00:33:53,150
you provide about this know if I mean

733
00:33:56,020 --> 00:33:54,590
where else are you gonna hear that if

734
00:33:57,460 --> 00:33:56,030
you're wearing a watch you won't be able

735
00:33:58,750 --> 00:33:57,470
to come out of your body physically and

736
00:34:00,310 --> 00:33:58,760
all the rest I don't know where it Amit

737
00:34:02,860 --> 00:34:00,320
I don't know what to make of that but I

738
00:34:05,020 --> 00:34:02,870
I guess there's plenty of people who can

739
00:34:07,270 --> 00:34:05,030
vouch for that and your experience and

740
00:34:08,470 --> 00:34:07,280
working with thousands of people can can

741
00:34:10,570 --> 00:34:08,480
really back that up it's great

742
00:34:13,090 --> 00:34:10,580
information but I have to return if I

743
00:34:16,210 --> 00:34:13,100
can to this spiritual matter because I

744
00:34:19,510 --> 00:34:16,220
think that this is really troubling for

745
00:34:22,630 --> 00:34:19,520
people in this topic and I'm not so sure

746
00:34:24,550 --> 00:34:22,640
that we can separate them so cleanly in

747
00:34:26,440 --> 00:34:24,560
terms of saying well you know here's

748
00:34:29,140 --> 00:34:26,450
physically how you do it and you fly out

749
00:34:31,120 --> 00:34:29,150
and you fly back in and I guess I'd

750
00:34:33,010 --> 00:34:31,130
maybe take it in a different direction

751
00:34:33,970 --> 00:34:33,020
mix in another guest that we recently

752
00:34:37,630 --> 00:34:33,980
had on the show

753
00:34:40,570 --> 00:34:37,640
Harvard neurosurgeon Evan Alexander he's

754
00:34:44,920 --> 00:34:40,580
New York Times bestselling author as we

755
00:34:47,980 --> 00:34:44,930
speak came on the show and recounted his

756
00:34:52,030 --> 00:34:47,990
amazing near-death experience so here's

757
00:34:54,940 --> 00:34:52,040
a guy who was clinically dead traveled

758
00:34:57,520 --> 00:34:54,950
outside of his body went to this other

759
00:35:00,070 --> 00:34:57,530
realm that he understood as heaven had

760
00:35:02,380 --> 00:35:00,080
this amazing experience we don't have to

761
00:35:04,810 --> 00:35:02,390
get into the details of it but there was

762
00:35:07,380 --> 00:35:04,820
a definite divinity that he felt

763
00:35:09,760 --> 00:35:07,390
associated with that experience this

764
00:35:13,120 --> 00:35:09,770
overwhelming feeling of love and

765
00:35:16,420 --> 00:35:13,130
acceptance which near-death experiencers

766
00:35:18,700 --> 00:35:16,430
report almost uniformly as being the

767
00:35:22,120 --> 00:35:18,710
most significant part of the experience

768
00:35:25,539 --> 00:35:22,130
they associated with a higher spirit a

769
00:35:26,859 --> 00:35:25,549
hierarchical spirit which hey that's God

770
00:35:28,390 --> 00:35:26,869
you know and you can call it what you

771
00:35:30,609 --> 00:35:28,400
will intellectualize it but that's

772
00:35:32,200 --> 00:35:30,619
really what they're talking about how

773
00:35:34,870 --> 00:35:32,210
are we supposed to sort that out what

774
00:35:38,759 --> 00:35:34,880
what about the God question what about

775
00:35:42,279 --> 00:35:38,769
the Jesus question what's going on there

776
00:35:45,370 --> 00:35:42,289
okay well theoretically just the concept

777
00:35:48,609 --> 00:35:45,380
of it by what I what I call you call God

778
00:35:51,430 --> 00:35:48,619
other people might call God can also be

779
00:35:53,769 --> 00:35:51,440
called the source or can even be called

780
00:35:57,069 --> 00:35:53,779
your higher self is a like a gradient of

781
00:35:58,930 --> 00:35:57,079
consciousness from you to the entire

782
00:36:02,499 --> 00:35:58,940
universe if you mention the entire

783
00:36:06,940 --> 00:36:02,509
universe is consciousness manifest in

784
00:36:09,519 --> 00:36:06,950
form now I focus on the mechanics of the

785
00:36:12,819 --> 00:36:09,529
process that's why for tie in my

786
00:36:16,079 --> 00:36:12,829
interest but I mean I've met angels I

787
00:36:19,150 --> 00:36:16,089
have had experiences which is very

788
00:36:22,269 --> 00:36:19,160
Christian oriented I've had experience

789
00:36:25,630 --> 00:36:22,279
which is a which are very you could say

790
00:36:28,630 --> 00:36:25,640
Islamic very Hindu type there seems to

791
00:36:31,180 --> 00:36:28,640
be like different versions of the

792
00:36:34,690 --> 00:36:31,190
afterlife the spiritual greater reality

793
00:36:37,809 --> 00:36:34,700
at the higher levels which seem to match

794
00:36:41,109 --> 00:36:37,819
up with the the different religions and

795
00:36:43,120 --> 00:36:41,119
others but and there is yeah when you

796
00:36:46,140 --> 00:36:43,130
get there there is this overwhelming

797
00:36:49,870 --> 00:36:46,150
feeling of of love but also if you

798
00:36:52,509 --> 00:36:49,880
connect with your higher self personally

799
00:36:55,029 --> 00:36:52,519
in your own room you find you are

800
00:36:57,849 --> 00:36:55,039
exposed to this overwhelming feeling of

801
00:37:00,549 --> 00:36:57,859
love and understanding as well that

802
00:37:02,799 --> 00:37:00,559
seems to permeate that yet your reality

803
00:37:06,160 --> 00:37:02,809
but I mean all of these things doing is

804
00:37:09,220 --> 00:37:06,170
this but I I have I'm a very open-minded

805
00:37:11,559 --> 00:37:09,230
skeptic I don't have any particular

806
00:37:13,990 --> 00:37:11,569
religious beliefs I was raised

807
00:37:16,839 --> 00:37:14,000
you could say I'm ain't white Christian

808
00:37:19,749 --> 00:37:16,849
Protestant I went to the Salvation Army

809
00:37:21,670 --> 00:37:19,759
for a couple of years in my teens I mean

810
00:37:24,880 --> 00:37:21,680
that's about it so I've got the generic

811
00:37:25,740 --> 00:37:24,890
question works there but I'm also you

812
00:37:27,660 --> 00:37:25,750
know I have

813
00:37:30,090 --> 00:37:27,670
I'm an open-minded skeptic I'm very

814
00:37:32,130 --> 00:37:30,100
scientific about my approach to this

815
00:37:34,350 --> 00:37:32,140
because I found that as the only wire

816
00:37:39,200 --> 00:37:34,360
could make any sense out of it is

817
00:37:42,000 --> 00:37:39,210
actually just to examine everything and

818
00:37:43,770 --> 00:37:42,010
and hold it in hand and try to make you

819
00:37:46,350 --> 00:37:43,780
know trying to make sense out of it just

820
00:37:50,880 --> 00:37:46,360
by observing it and particularly by

821
00:37:53,550 --> 00:37:50,890
staying in the question why not I found

822
00:37:56,040 --> 00:37:53,560
that if I categorize something and say

823
00:37:58,470 --> 00:37:56,050
well that's astral projection and this

824
00:38:00,330 --> 00:37:58,480
is lucid dreaming and that's dreaming

825
00:38:02,730 --> 00:38:00,340
and these are completely different

826
00:38:04,950 --> 00:38:02,740
things and some maybe I say astral

827
00:38:07,140 --> 00:38:04,960
projection is superior to lucid dreaming

828
00:38:07,710 --> 00:38:07,150
is that's just dreaming but that's not

829
00:38:09,870 --> 00:38:07,720
true

830
00:38:11,490 --> 00:38:09,880
there is no superiority there the

831
00:38:14,280 --> 00:38:11,500
experience is just different

832
00:38:16,680 --> 00:38:14,290
but back again to that to the daily sort

833
00:38:20,040 --> 00:38:16,690
of thing I mean I have encountered

834
00:38:23,420 --> 00:38:20,050
beings which appear to be like deities

835
00:38:27,390 --> 00:38:23,430
and particularly angels angelic type are

836
00:38:29,160 --> 00:38:27,400
beings I've had them even I remember my

837
00:38:32,490 --> 00:38:29,170
first encounter with angels

838
00:38:34,860 --> 00:38:32,500
I had three angels completely

839
00:38:39,180 --> 00:38:34,870
materialized in my bedroom when I was 14

840
00:38:42,210 --> 00:38:39,190
and like yeah I this experience with

841
00:38:44,220 --> 00:38:42,220
them and and over the years I mean I

842
00:38:47,460 --> 00:38:44,230
don't see them all the time but

843
00:38:49,980 --> 00:38:47,470
occasionally I will encounter an angel

844
00:38:52,860 --> 00:38:49,990
or what you'll call like spiritual

845
00:38:55,050 --> 00:38:52,870
master datatype beam but Robert hold on

846
00:38:56,460 --> 00:38:55,060
hold on one second I I really appreciate

847
00:39:00,150 --> 00:38:56,470
what you're saying and I love the

848
00:39:03,030 --> 00:39:00,160
open-minded skeptic I think most people

849
00:39:05,520 --> 00:39:03,040
who self identify as skeptic would have

850
00:39:07,680 --> 00:39:05,530
a real hard time with that but I don't I

851
00:39:10,680 --> 00:39:07,690
mean I think that's wonderful that you

852
00:39:14,670 --> 00:39:10,690
can traverse this landscape that you're

853
00:39:17,340 --> 00:39:14,680
in and maintain this skepticism awesome

854
00:39:21,600 --> 00:39:17,350
but I'm not I can't quite square that

855
00:39:23,850 --> 00:39:21,610
with when you say angel an ascended

856
00:39:26,190 --> 00:39:23,860
master and I don't have any dog in this

857
00:39:28,650 --> 00:39:26,200
fight either I'm not Christian I'm not

858
00:39:31,620 --> 00:39:28,660
particularly religious but I the

859
00:39:34,170 --> 00:39:31,630
evidence to me does point towards there

860
00:39:36,570 --> 00:39:34,180
being this hierarchy to this

861
00:39:38,730 --> 00:39:36,580
consciousness and then you can put any

862
00:39:39,420 --> 00:39:38,740
name you want on its source or God or

863
00:39:41,670 --> 00:39:39,430
whatever

864
00:39:43,770 --> 00:39:41,680
but it seems going in one direction and

865
00:39:46,920 --> 00:39:43,780
there does seem to be a moral imperative

866
00:39:48,960 --> 00:39:46,930
here there's some you know your moral

867
00:39:50,700 --> 00:39:48,970
imperative that you're that you've

868
00:39:53,250 --> 00:39:50,710
talked about in your latest book is

869
00:39:55,710 --> 00:39:53,260
evolution and that we have to evolve but

870
00:39:58,650 --> 00:39:55,720
I think related to that is this moral

871
00:40:02,220 --> 00:39:58,660
imperative maybe to what to do good to

872
00:40:05,339 --> 00:40:02,230
learn and how would an eight how else

873
00:40:07,349 --> 00:40:05,349
would an angel even exist or fit into

874
00:40:10,620 --> 00:40:07,359
this landscape if we don't have those

875
00:40:13,920 --> 00:40:10,630
things I don't know and isn't it

876
00:40:16,290 --> 00:40:13,930
wonderful that I don't know I know that

877
00:40:19,049 --> 00:40:16,300
they exist I know they look like angels

878
00:40:21,299 --> 00:40:19,059
I know they behave like angels but I

879
00:40:23,339 --> 00:40:21,309
can't pigeonhole all of this together

880
00:40:26,069 --> 00:40:23,349
and say that malong was there that's

881
00:40:28,410 --> 00:40:26,079
number five on the list I mean I am just

882
00:40:31,069 --> 00:40:28,420
observing and staying in the question

883
00:40:34,740 --> 00:40:31,079
now anybody who is a close-minded

884
00:40:37,380 --> 00:40:34,750
skeptic and there are a lot of clothes -

885
00:40:40,410 --> 00:40:37,390
skeptics out there they are no different

886
00:40:43,109 --> 00:40:40,420
to any you could say enthusiastic

887
00:40:45,240 --> 00:40:43,119
Baptist or born-again tie Pentecostal

888
00:40:46,859 --> 00:40:45,250
belief you know you get the very

889
00:40:48,960 --> 00:40:46,869
closed-minded Christians and

890
00:40:51,480 --> 00:40:48,970
everything's according to the Bible and

891
00:40:52,530 --> 00:40:51,490
it must fit the Bible or its rubbish or

892
00:40:55,289 --> 00:40:52,540
it doesn't exist

893
00:40:57,630 --> 00:40:55,299
I mean her closed-minded skeptics like

894
00:41:00,359 --> 00:40:57,640
that band off my forums i banned them

895
00:41:04,079 --> 00:41:00,369
years ago because they are painful they

896
00:41:06,089 --> 00:41:04,089
are I would much rather have a very

897
00:41:08,760 --> 00:41:06,099
enthusiastic religious person there

898
00:41:11,309 --> 00:41:08,770
because that's very unscientific we've

899
00:41:13,109 --> 00:41:11,319
made a point on this show to inviting

900
00:41:15,329 --> 00:41:13,119
those folks into the conversation and

901
00:41:17,150 --> 00:41:15,339
they're very interesting conversations

902
00:41:19,140 --> 00:41:17,160
because I mean I think the whole

903
00:41:20,280 --> 00:41:19,150
skepticism thing I don't want to get

904
00:41:22,380 --> 00:41:20,290
into it because there's so many

905
00:41:24,329 --> 00:41:22,390
interesting topics I need to talk to you

906
00:41:27,420 --> 00:41:24,339
about but I think you hit the nail on

907
00:41:30,930 --> 00:41:27,430
the head when you put them in the same

908
00:41:33,210 --> 00:41:30,940
lot as fundamentalist yeah Christian

909
00:41:35,609 --> 00:41:33,220
folks or any fundamentalist religion

910
00:41:38,849 --> 00:41:35,619
that it's this fear this need to have

911
00:41:41,309 --> 00:41:38,859
control this need to to know your

912
00:41:43,380 --> 00:41:41,319
doctrine and state your dogma and stick

913
00:41:45,780 --> 00:41:43,390
to it and I think it comes from that but

914
00:41:47,880 --> 00:41:45,790
I don't like when people psycho aunt do

915
00:41:49,740 --> 00:41:47,890
cheap psychoanalysis on me so I

916
00:41:52,830 --> 00:41:49,750
shouldn't do it on other people but I

917
00:41:54,930 --> 00:41:52,840
tell you what let me let me shift

918
00:41:57,930 --> 00:41:54,940
is only slightly because I'll tell you

919
00:42:00,030 --> 00:41:57,940
one of the things I've found in one of

920
00:42:03,000 --> 00:42:00,040
your emails because I signed up quite a

921
00:42:05,430 --> 00:42:03,010
long time ago for your excellent email

922
00:42:07,830 --> 00:42:05,440
newsletter packed with information you

923
00:42:09,810 --> 00:42:07,840
get a good sales pitch in there but you

924
00:42:11,700 --> 00:42:09,820
always deliver some good information

925
00:42:14,010 --> 00:42:11,710
with it it's not like it's just pure

926
00:42:16,680 --> 00:42:14,020
sales you you deliver good stuff it's

927
00:42:19,760 --> 00:42:16,690
it's good stuff I talked about the

928
00:42:23,070 --> 00:42:19,770
chalkboard experiment that you say

929
00:42:25,470 --> 00:42:23,080
instantly completely blows apart this

930
00:42:28,500 --> 00:42:25,480
materialistic science that insists that

931
00:42:31,470 --> 00:42:28,510
mind equals brain here's the rub I'm

932
00:42:35,670 --> 00:42:31,480
with you that materialistic science has

933
00:42:37,620 --> 00:42:35,680
been defeated just soundly so many

934
00:42:39,330 --> 00:42:37,630
different ways yet it persists and

935
00:42:41,430 --> 00:42:39,340
that's a whole question of how and why

936
00:42:44,460 --> 00:42:41,440
it persists but the chalkboard

937
00:42:47,690 --> 00:42:44,470
experiment Robert why haven't you done

938
00:42:50,390 --> 00:42:47,700
it I'm I guess close enough with enough

939
00:42:54,080 --> 00:42:50,400
parapsychologists who would jump into

940
00:42:57,470 --> 00:42:54,090
the chance to do the chalkboard

941
00:43:01,320 --> 00:42:57,480
experiment with any number of your

942
00:43:03,930 --> 00:43:01,330
students or you or anyone like that it

943
00:43:06,450 --> 00:43:03,940
would it move if it had any chance of

944
00:43:07,740 --> 00:43:06,460
moving this whole thing forward tell us

945
00:43:09,950 --> 00:43:07,750
a little bit before I get too far along

946
00:43:13,350 --> 00:43:09,960
what you describe as your chalkboard

947
00:43:15,630 --> 00:43:13,360
experiment and then tell me how we how

948
00:43:18,480 --> 00:43:15,640
we formalize that and get that done I

949
00:43:22,050 --> 00:43:18,490
have done there hundreds of times over

950
00:43:24,180 --> 00:43:22,060
the years for people and little groups

951
00:43:26,670 --> 00:43:24,190
and things like that Mike I've got

952
00:43:30,390 --> 00:43:26,680
students of mind are the better than me

953
00:43:32,520 --> 00:43:30,400
at that I mean I have a student in

954
00:43:35,610 --> 00:43:32,530
Virginia he's an engineer

955
00:43:39,090 --> 00:43:35,620
he gets over 70% success writing with

956
00:43:40,980 --> 00:43:39,100
with that like you put a playing card if

957
00:43:43,740 --> 00:43:40,990
I see out on the window on top of a

958
00:43:46,710 --> 00:43:43,750
wardrobe and you know you go have an OB

959
00:43:49,170 --> 00:43:46,720
and go and read it and it is an engineer

960
00:43:51,060 --> 00:43:49,180
he does he does the data on it his

961
00:43:55,200 --> 00:43:51,070
favorite saying is you know show me the

962
00:43:57,030 --> 00:43:55,210
data and very scientific about it but

963
00:44:00,150 --> 00:43:57,040
it's pointless I mean it is pointless

964
00:44:02,070 --> 00:44:00,160
doing that experiment for particularly

965
00:44:03,990 --> 00:44:02,080
the skeptics I wouldn't even bother I

966
00:44:06,670 --> 00:44:04,000
mean the whole Randi million-dollar

967
00:44:08,920 --> 00:44:06,680
challenge is fake it's a lie

968
00:44:12,730 --> 00:44:08,930
I mean even if you if you fulfill

969
00:44:15,550 --> 00:44:12,740
requirements and you 100% blow that test

970
00:44:17,320 --> 00:44:15,560
away they because of the way the

971
00:44:20,440 --> 00:44:17,330
contracts are written and the copyright

972
00:44:22,330 --> 00:44:20,450
there it rests it comes down to they'll

973
00:44:25,000 --> 00:44:22,340
say I don't know how you did it but I

974
00:44:27,460 --> 00:44:25,010
know you faked it because obviously as a

975
00:44:29,500 --> 00:44:27,470
heart and a skeptic phenomenon is

976
00:44:31,810 --> 00:44:29,510
impossible therefore if you succeeded

977
00:44:33,940 --> 00:44:31,820
this test you are somehow cheating

978
00:44:35,500 --> 00:44:33,950
therefore you fail and that's their

979
00:44:38,350 --> 00:44:35,510
approach that's why I won't talk to them

980
00:44:41,520 --> 00:44:38,360
but I will not talk and I advise people

981
00:44:45,100 --> 00:44:41,530
not to talk to close minded skeptics

982
00:44:47,110 --> 00:44:45,110
talk to open-minded skeptic sure but if

983
00:44:49,270 --> 00:44:47,120
your clothes - skeptic it's a waste of

984
00:44:53,110 --> 00:44:49,280
time I mean - quieter and Rupert

985
00:44:55,390 --> 00:44:53,120
Sheldrake a man I admire he said even

986
00:44:57,600 --> 00:44:55,400
when you present a really thorough piece

987
00:45:01,420 --> 00:44:57,610
of science in a peer-reviewed journal

988
00:45:03,490 --> 00:45:01,430
impeccable work he says a skeptic will

989
00:45:05,980 --> 00:45:03,500
glance at the page they won't read the

990
00:45:08,320 --> 00:45:05,990
data and they will dump all over you

991
00:45:10,540 --> 00:45:08,330
about that they just see the title and

992
00:45:12,310 --> 00:45:10,550
maybe glance at the abstract and then

993
00:45:14,470 --> 00:45:12,320
they'll dump on the insights impossible

994
00:45:16,960 --> 00:45:14,480
because to them it's obviously

995
00:45:19,900 --> 00:45:16,970
impossible it's like saying I can

996
00:45:23,110 --> 00:45:19,910
levitate now I'd levitate in front of

997
00:45:25,350 --> 00:45:23,120
you and and you know the skeptics of the

998
00:45:28,410 --> 00:45:25,360
air and in our under their control and

999
00:45:31,690 --> 00:45:28,420
I'll ever take in front of them and

1000
00:45:33,400 --> 00:45:31,700
successfully they even video it and the

1001
00:45:35,590 --> 00:45:33,410
end result they say I don't know how you

1002
00:45:39,400 --> 00:45:35,600
did it but he must have put some wastage

1003
00:45:42,610 --> 00:45:39,410
any cast out or and had the video rigged

1004
00:45:45,250 --> 00:45:42,620
somehow you know you can't win against

1005
00:45:46,990 --> 00:45:45,260
that sort of thinking well it's funny

1006
00:45:48,940 --> 00:45:47,000
because just today I was having an email

1007
00:45:51,430 --> 00:45:48,950
exchange with a friend of mine who's an

1008
00:45:53,650 --> 00:45:51,440
author and a blogger and he's gotten

1009
00:45:56,680 --> 00:45:53,660
into a public kind of exchange about the

1010
00:45:59,290 --> 00:45:56,690
Randi challenge and and I kind of my

1011
00:46:02,550 --> 00:45:59,300
take on it is you know you can't go

1012
00:46:05,500 --> 00:46:02,560
there because James Randi is a proven

1013
00:46:07,180 --> 00:46:05,510
there's no really polite word for it but

1014
00:46:09,450 --> 00:46:07,190
he's a proven liar I mean he's been

1015
00:46:12,670 --> 00:46:09,460
proven over and over again to

1016
00:46:14,890 --> 00:46:12,680
intentionally misrepresent things he's

1017
00:46:18,130 --> 00:46:14,900
on the record of saying you know we

1018
00:46:19,720 --> 00:46:18,140
cannot let the Mystics he's suppressed

1019
00:46:22,690 --> 00:46:19,730
data and

1020
00:46:25,810 --> 00:46:22,700
said we cannot let the Mystics rejoice

1021
00:46:29,349 --> 00:46:25,820
so he has an agenda that drives him

1022
00:46:33,400 --> 00:46:29,359
towards dishonesty as part of his agenda

1023
00:46:35,770 --> 00:46:33,410
so that is that first prerequisite for

1024
00:46:38,890 --> 00:46:35,780
science so I think the whole discussion

1025
00:46:43,180 --> 00:46:38,900
of the rules of handy challenge or the

1026
00:46:46,720 --> 00:46:43,190
copyright or all that it's moot he's not

1027
00:46:49,000 --> 00:46:46,730
honest and trustworthy so all is always

1028
00:46:51,609 --> 00:46:49,010
lost I can hit he sit here and make any

1029
00:46:53,500 --> 00:46:51,619
claim I want about what I'll do for you

1030
00:46:55,030 --> 00:46:53,510
or how I'll do it if I'm not an honest

1031
00:46:57,430 --> 00:46:55,040
person 80 there really isn't any point

1032
00:46:58,840 --> 00:46:57,440
in proceeding I will say Rupert

1033
00:47:01,000 --> 00:46:58,850
Sheldrake has been on this show a number

1034
00:47:03,940 --> 00:47:01,010
of times I admire him greatly there's

1035
00:47:06,460 --> 00:47:03,950
other well-known parapsychology

1036
00:47:10,300 --> 00:47:06,470
researchers that have been on this show

1037
00:47:12,880 --> 00:47:10,310
I'm not big on experiments I've kind of

1038
00:47:16,050 --> 00:47:12,890
moved past that but I tell you what I

1039
00:47:19,390 --> 00:47:16,060
would be I would welcome the opportunity

1040
00:47:21,540 --> 00:47:19,400
to hook up with some of your students

1041
00:47:24,070 --> 00:47:21,550
and try and do a well-controlled

1042
00:47:26,109 --> 00:47:24,080
experiment like that through a psych

1043
00:47:27,280 --> 00:47:26,119
through a pair of psychology department

1044
00:47:30,400 --> 00:47:27,290
at a university

1045
00:47:32,620 --> 00:47:30,410
I'll help fund it I'll help publicize it

1046
00:47:35,050 --> 00:47:32,630
and it probably won't make a bit of

1047
00:47:36,700 --> 00:47:35,060
difference in the long run but I think

1048
00:47:40,660 --> 00:47:36,710
it needs to be out there because I think

1049
00:47:42,520 --> 00:47:40,670
when open-minded people who are

1050
00:47:45,340 --> 00:47:42,530
predisposed to be skeptical because

1051
00:47:48,130 --> 00:47:45,350
that's how our society turns people out

1052
00:47:50,590 --> 00:47:48,140
to deny all this stuff and to deny their

1053
00:47:52,480 --> 00:47:50,600
own experience deny their family

1054
00:47:54,370 --> 00:47:52,490
experiences yet they're dull no that

1055
00:47:56,380 --> 00:47:54,380
can't be to you that can't be true but

1056
00:47:59,170 --> 00:47:56,390
those people occasionally do wake up and

1057
00:48:00,970 --> 00:47:59,180
they want the data and it is helpful I

1058
00:48:01,570 --> 00:48:00,980
think for them to be able to go and say

1059
00:48:04,450 --> 00:48:01,580
huh

1060
00:48:07,030 --> 00:48:04,460
here is a scientist well credentialed

1061
00:48:09,099 --> 00:48:07,040
that has put together an interesting

1062
00:48:12,609 --> 00:48:09,109
survey and interesting paper and

1063
00:48:15,340 --> 00:48:12,619
published it and if you're willing to

1064
00:48:17,020 --> 00:48:15,350
participate in that by maybe connecting

1065
00:48:19,359 --> 00:48:17,030
me with some of your students I'd love

1066
00:48:21,510 --> 00:48:19,369
to pursue that and again for I went on

1067
00:48:23,950 --> 00:48:21,520
there for a long time not to explain the

1068
00:48:25,359 --> 00:48:23,960
chalkboard experiment is very simple it

1069
00:48:27,720 --> 00:48:25,369
is what you just described it's

1070
00:48:31,120 --> 00:48:27,730
traveling outside of your body

1071
00:48:32,620 --> 00:48:31,130
retrieving a simple bit of information

1072
00:48:36,430 --> 00:48:32,630
that is

1073
00:48:38,020 --> 00:48:36,440
known and hidden but is rather you know

1074
00:48:40,840 --> 00:48:38,030
simple like a playing card or a number

1075
00:48:43,260 --> 00:48:40,850
and then bringing it back in a waking

1076
00:48:46,630 --> 00:48:43,270
state and yeah telling it to someone

1077
00:48:49,300 --> 00:48:46,640
well the only issue with those sort of

1078
00:48:50,920 --> 00:48:49,310
is the wall that can be done is you

1079
00:48:54,790 --> 00:48:50,930
could do that and I have done it like

1080
00:48:57,250 --> 00:48:54,800
hundreds of times and you know you might

1081
00:49:00,340 --> 00:48:57,260
affect one person occasionally because

1082
00:49:02,680 --> 00:49:00,350
to really get it for the penny to drop

1083
00:49:06,190 --> 00:49:02,690
for anybody you have to do it yourself

1084
00:49:08,650 --> 00:49:06,200
and it's very very easy to easy to do to

1085
00:49:11,200 --> 00:49:08,660
get some inner some personal experience

1086
00:49:12,820 --> 00:49:11,210
all you've got to do is you know rim a

1087
00:49:15,940 --> 00:49:12,830
little bit about it you know five

1088
00:49:18,970 --> 00:49:15,950
minutes and sit down and do it and when

1089
00:49:20,650 --> 00:49:18,980
you have your own experience with it all

1090
00:49:23,280 --> 00:49:20,660
of a sudden then all the pennies will

1091
00:49:26,730 --> 00:49:23,290
drop and it's real for you I was advised

1092
00:49:30,780 --> 00:49:26,740
many years ago by a master who

1093
00:49:33,400 --> 00:49:30,790
manifested to me and I was invited

1094
00:49:36,990 --> 00:49:33,410
explain to me how the system works you

1095
00:49:40,750 --> 00:49:37,000
could say how the spiritual evolution

1096
00:49:43,900 --> 00:49:40,760
system works on this planet I mean this

1097
00:49:46,000 --> 00:49:43,910
reality is probably a better word and he

1098
00:49:49,900 --> 00:49:46,010
explained that you you have to dismantle

1099
00:49:52,210 --> 00:49:49,910
your blank system and you gotta you've

1100
00:49:55,360 --> 00:49:52,220
gotta create some lists and and in that

1101
00:49:58,420 --> 00:49:55,370
you have a core belief system which must

1102
00:50:01,000 --> 00:49:58,430
be based on personal experience only

1103
00:50:02,890 --> 00:50:01,010
it's very scientific and you have

1104
00:50:04,360 --> 00:50:02,900
another left to the side which is all

1105
00:50:06,820 --> 00:50:04,370
the things that you used to believe in

1106
00:50:08,620 --> 00:50:06,830
which are probably right you're just

1107
00:50:11,200 --> 00:50:08,630
waiting for data to connect them

1108
00:50:12,760 --> 00:50:11,210
personal experience on me to connect

1109
00:50:15,520 --> 00:50:12,770
them before you can take them in your

1110
00:50:18,850 --> 00:50:15,530
core belief system and you have another

1111
00:50:22,300 --> 00:50:18,860
list which is Possible's and by

1112
00:50:24,490 --> 00:50:22,310
analyzing self observation and looking

1113
00:50:27,700 --> 00:50:24,500
at yourself you purify your belief

1114
00:50:30,280 --> 00:50:27,710
systems and you start a very practical

1115
00:50:33,940 --> 00:50:30,290
approach to spirituality spiritual

1116
00:50:36,640 --> 00:50:33,950
development and this works I mean the

1117
00:50:39,310 --> 00:50:36,650
logic here is impeccable if you proceed

1118
00:50:42,400 --> 00:50:39,320
that way but is it was told me that the

1119
00:50:45,620 --> 00:50:42,410
the system is designed this way you

1120
00:50:47,720 --> 00:50:45,630
cannot learn spirituality or spirit

1121
00:50:50,299 --> 00:50:47,730
development from a book I mean you can't

1122
00:50:53,059 --> 00:50:50,309
sit down and read a room full of books

1123
00:50:54,859 --> 00:50:53,069
and become a spiritual master you cannot

1124
00:50:56,720 --> 00:50:54,869
you can pick up some interesting

1125
00:50:59,779 --> 00:50:56,730
philosophy and some facts and figures

1126
00:51:03,740 --> 00:50:59,789
and that but it won't be real to you to

1127
00:51:04,460 --> 00:51:03,750
be real in any shape you have to do it

1128
00:51:07,069 --> 00:51:04,470
yourself

1129
00:51:10,609 --> 00:51:07,079
sure but Robert I mean as as your own

1130
00:51:13,519 --> 00:51:10,619
educational products attest the process

1131
00:51:15,710 --> 00:51:13,529
that people go through is varied so

1132
00:51:18,140 --> 00:51:15,720
someone will pick up astral dynamics and

1133
00:51:20,089 --> 00:51:18,150
read one page and leave it on their desk

1134
00:51:22,309 --> 00:51:20,099
for or in their bookshelf for three

1135
00:51:23,660 --> 00:51:22,319
years and then pick it up again so hey

1136
00:51:25,430 --> 00:51:23,670
it's good that they picked it up and

1137
00:51:26,599 --> 00:51:25,440
read those first three pages and then it

1138
00:51:29,089 --> 00:51:26,609
sat there and then they read it again

1139
00:51:30,799 --> 00:51:29,099
you know we can't control and I'm

1140
00:51:33,079 --> 00:51:30,809
speaking to the choir here I'm sure you

1141
00:51:35,930 --> 00:51:33,089
know this the process that people go

1142
00:51:39,109 --> 00:51:35,940
through so having material out there and

1143
00:51:42,499 --> 00:51:39,119
having resources in a form that the

1144
00:51:44,539 --> 00:51:42,509
people have comfort from in the way that

1145
00:51:47,660 --> 00:51:44,549
you're talking about in terms of their

1146
00:51:50,269 --> 00:51:47,670
probable belief system well a lot of

1147
00:51:52,400 --> 00:51:50,279
people it's a fair and and and and

1148
00:51:54,410 --> 00:51:52,410
actually intelligent way for people to

1149
00:51:56,539 --> 00:51:54,420
proceed to say you know that Rupert

1150
00:51:58,700 --> 00:51:56,549
Sheldrake we were talking about that guy

1151
00:52:01,670 --> 00:51:58,710
makes sense to me I've read his books

1152
00:52:04,160 --> 00:52:01,680
I trust him I believe him so when Rupert

1153
00:52:08,029 --> 00:52:04,170
Sheldrake puts his stamp of approval on

1154
00:52:11,150 --> 00:52:08,039
an experiment I'm more open to looking

1155
00:52:12,589 --> 00:52:11,160
into it and and maybe investigating it

1156
00:52:14,359 --> 00:52:12,599
than I would have been hey man that's

1157
00:52:15,980 --> 00:52:14,369
just the way it is that's the way we all

1158
00:52:18,650 --> 00:52:15,990
are about about everything about

1159
00:52:20,870 --> 00:52:18,660
listening to the news or getting any

1160
00:52:27,740 --> 00:52:20,880
kind of information so why wouldn't we

1161
00:52:30,799 --> 00:52:27,750
do it it's not as simple as you think I

1162
00:52:33,410 --> 00:52:30,809
mean a man who pushed the envelope on

1163
00:52:36,829 --> 00:52:33,420
that out-of-body experience was Robert

1164
00:52:39,680 --> 00:52:36,839
Monroe and and years ago when he started

1165
00:52:43,670 --> 00:52:39,690
up the monitor institute and worked with

1166
00:52:46,609 --> 00:52:43,680
Tom Campbell a physicist or from my big

1167
00:52:48,620 --> 00:52:46,619
toe and they developed the binder or

1168
00:52:51,380 --> 00:52:48,630
beads the hemi-sync or the state

1169
00:52:53,839 --> 00:52:51,390
induction system and they're now over

1170
00:52:57,980 --> 00:52:53,849
the years they really push the envelope

1171
00:52:59,250 --> 00:52:57,990
on astral projection and they had a

1172
00:53:01,610 --> 00:52:59,260
visit

1173
00:53:06,720 --> 00:53:01,620
from people from the government who

1174
00:53:10,830 --> 00:53:06,730
warned them to back off on astral

1175
00:53:14,430 --> 00:53:10,840
projection particularly in proving it to

1176
00:53:17,300 --> 00:53:14,440
the general population and I have been

1177
00:53:20,010 --> 00:53:17,310
on very good authority personal

1178
00:53:22,110 --> 00:53:20,020
Authority you won't find that in print

1179
00:53:23,610 --> 00:53:22,120
I'm sure that's true but why I'm now I'm

1180
00:53:24,930 --> 00:53:23,620
a little bit now I got to push this a

1181
00:53:28,740 --> 00:53:24,940
little bit further because I'm a little

1182
00:53:31,440 --> 00:53:28,750
bit baffled why why wouldn't we do this

1183
00:53:33,000 --> 00:53:31,450
why but that's that's not enough of a

1184
00:53:33,990 --> 00:53:33,010
reason unless you're afraid of the

1185
00:53:35,400 --> 00:53:34,000
government or I'm afraid of the

1186
00:53:36,300 --> 00:53:35,410
government and I don't think we have two

1187
00:53:38,460 --> 00:53:36,310
different governments you're in

1188
00:53:40,710 --> 00:53:38,470
Australia I'm the United States you know

1189
00:53:42,630 --> 00:53:40,720
I can pick up we can pick a researcher

1190
00:53:47,220 --> 00:53:42,640
in Canada there we go we'll triangulate

1191
00:53:49,110 --> 00:53:47,230
it why not do this well I think anybody

1192
00:53:51,870 --> 00:53:49,120
who is not afraid of their government in

1193
00:53:54,960 --> 00:53:51,880
the West of the world needs to do a lot

1194
00:53:57,300 --> 00:53:54,970
of alternative reading seekers I think

1195
00:53:59,850 --> 00:53:57,310
this there's cause for concern there at

1196
00:54:01,920 --> 00:53:59,860
the very least in this day night but

1197
00:54:05,400 --> 00:54:01,930
there was also the public thing I mean

1198
00:54:08,460 --> 00:54:05,410
the vast majority of the population here

1199
00:54:11,360 --> 00:54:08,470
is like you know probably 99% of the

1200
00:54:13,680 --> 00:54:11,370
population is so programmed to

1201
00:54:16,140 --> 00:54:13,690
disbelieve in things like that I mean

1202
00:54:19,110 --> 00:54:16,150
it's okay for people to believe in Santa

1203
00:54:22,920 --> 00:54:19,120
Claus and the Easter Bunny and the Tooth

1204
00:54:24,030 --> 00:54:22,930
Fairy and of other things thinking they

1205
00:54:26,760 --> 00:54:24,040
can believe in

1206
00:54:29,790 --> 00:54:26,770
but anything any kind of real phenomena

1207
00:54:32,640 --> 00:54:29,800
really tends to shake people's world up

1208
00:54:35,970 --> 00:54:32,650
and if you try to demonstrate that I

1209
00:54:37,590 --> 00:54:35,980
mean I think you unlock something inside

1210
00:54:40,560 --> 00:54:37,600
of people that makes them feel right

1211
00:54:43,380 --> 00:54:40,570
it's very disturbing for people if you

1212
00:54:46,710 --> 00:54:43,390
prove that there is actually some not

1213
00:54:48,420 --> 00:54:46,720
spiritual phenomena because linking back

1214
00:54:50,490 --> 00:54:48,430
to what we first started talking about

1215
00:54:53,130 --> 00:54:50,500
here if you can prove that their

1216
00:54:55,440 --> 00:54:53,140
phenomena does exist it's only a very

1217
00:54:59,280 --> 00:54:55,450
very short jump and you're opening the

1218
00:55:02,940 --> 00:54:59,290
door to allow the possibility that there

1219
00:55:05,430 --> 00:55:02,950
are spirits and demons and all kinds of

1220
00:55:07,710 --> 00:55:05,440
other things out there and the

1221
00:55:11,280 --> 00:55:07,720
population is in a by and large in that

1222
00:55:12,140 --> 00:55:11,290
sense very fear driven so they generally

1223
00:55:15,079 --> 00:55:12,150
prefer

1224
00:55:17,359 --> 00:55:15,089
not to believe in that sort of thing and

1225
00:55:21,730 --> 00:55:17,369
kind of shy away from it and that's

1226
00:55:24,380 --> 00:55:21,740
natural but and making progress to

1227
00:55:27,079 --> 00:55:24,390
convince people that they are more than

1228
00:55:30,319 --> 00:55:27,089
their physical bodies much much more is

1229
00:55:35,269 --> 00:55:30,329
a slow process of waking people up one

1230
00:55:37,940 --> 00:55:35,279
auditory yeah I'm I'm really you've

1231
00:55:39,740 --> 00:55:37,950
really piqued my curiosity here though

1232
00:55:40,849 --> 00:55:39,750
that still doesn't I mean that's what

1233
00:55:42,950 --> 00:55:40,859
you're all about I mean go to

1234
00:55:45,829 --> 00:55:42,960
astrodynamics com visit your website

1235
00:55:48,019 --> 00:55:45,839
you're all about teaching people to

1236
00:55:51,289 --> 00:55:48,029
overcome that and it seems like a a

1237
00:55:53,299 --> 00:55:51,299
small step to say you're going to

1238
00:55:54,440 --> 00:55:53,309
publicly participate in those kind of

1239
00:55:58,220 --> 00:55:54,450
experiments you know the other

1240
00:55:59,630 --> 00:55:58,230
out-of-body experience practitioner

1241
00:56:03,019 --> 00:55:59,640
we've had on the show is a guy named

1242
00:56:05,660 --> 00:56:03,029
Graham Nichols in the UK who is a friend

1243
00:56:08,059 --> 00:56:05,670
of Rupert Sheldrake's and they've tried

1244
00:56:10,730 --> 00:56:08,069
to put together several out-of-body

1245
00:56:12,680 --> 00:56:10,740
experience experiments like this and

1246
00:56:15,849 --> 00:56:12,690
they're difficult to do I understand

1247
00:56:20,480 --> 00:56:15,859
that but I don't see any real reason to

1248
00:56:23,299 --> 00:56:20,490
not to pursue that and I think I think

1249
00:56:24,980 --> 00:56:23,309
the biggest worry would be that any

1250
00:56:26,720 --> 00:56:24,990
results you get are going to be ignored

1251
00:56:27,680 --> 00:56:26,730
either way whether they're positive or

1252
00:56:30,349 --> 00:56:27,690
negative I don't think it's going to

1253
00:56:31,760 --> 00:56:30,359
change the world but hey you don't want

1254
00:56:35,299 --> 00:56:31,770
to do it you don't want to do it maybe

1255
00:56:37,400 --> 00:56:35,309
you have your reasons Robert tell us

1256
00:56:38,809 --> 00:56:37,410
anything else we might have left down

1257
00:56:43,430 --> 00:56:38,819
and tell us what people are going to

1258
00:56:47,260 --> 00:56:43,440
find at astral dynamics comm well I am

1259
00:56:49,400 --> 00:56:47,270
open to that I did try and do a

1260
00:56:53,599 --> 00:56:49,410
scientific experiment with astral

1261
00:56:55,760 --> 00:56:53,609
projection several years ago and I work

1262
00:56:58,690 --> 00:56:55,770
with a scientist associated with the

1263
00:57:01,819 --> 00:56:58,700
University of Virginia very nice man and

1264
00:57:04,640 --> 00:57:01,829
unfortunately the equipment that he used

1265
00:57:07,670 --> 00:57:04,650
the headpiece of the beadwork me up with

1266
00:57:10,370 --> 00:57:07,680
this whole head like a helmet thing was

1267
00:57:13,640 --> 00:57:10,380
very uncomfortable and at the time I

1268
00:57:16,519 --> 00:57:13,650
also I had some quite severe I mean

1269
00:57:18,440 --> 00:57:16,529
life-threatening neck injuries and the

1270
00:57:20,809 --> 00:57:18,450
combination was it was just too

1271
00:57:24,260 --> 00:57:20,819
difficult to get through that I think I

1272
00:57:24,990 --> 00:57:24,270
had one Oh be short Oh being in a period

1273
00:57:27,930 --> 00:57:25,000
of a few days

1274
00:57:30,930 --> 00:57:27,940
we worked on this so I am open to doing

1275
00:57:33,960 --> 00:57:30,940
that but it's since then I haven't had

1276
00:57:35,820 --> 00:57:33,970
the opportunity but you know I'm more on

1277
00:57:37,020 --> 00:57:35,830
the philosophical side I don't think it

1278
00:57:39,210 --> 00:57:37,030
would really make a great deal of

1279
00:57:41,520 --> 00:57:39,220
difference in the world beyond being

1280
00:57:43,830 --> 00:57:41,530
something interesting I mean Robert

1281
00:57:46,650 --> 00:57:43,840
Monroe did some experiments there have

1282
00:57:48,390 --> 00:57:46,660
been people that have done this but of

1283
00:57:51,060 --> 00:57:48,400
course this sort of experiment needs to

1284
00:57:54,380 --> 00:57:51,070
be done over and over and over again to

1285
00:57:58,260 --> 00:57:54,390
really have any kind of an impact on it

1286
00:58:02,220 --> 00:57:58,270
but yeah I have two websites after all

1287
00:58:04,620 --> 00:58:02,230
dynamics comm which is my professional

1288
00:58:07,080 --> 00:58:04,630
web site I have a community site with a

1289
00:58:11,609 --> 00:58:07,090
big forum and lots of free information

1290
00:58:16,470 --> 00:58:11,619
and that's astrodynamics org and that's

1291
00:58:19,170 --> 00:58:16,480
my frent community site well great best

1292
00:58:20,730 --> 00:58:19,180
of luck with all your work and thanks so

1293
00:58:23,970 --> 00:58:20,740
much for joining me it's been a great

1294
00:58:26,220 --> 00:58:23,980
conversation yeah thanks for having me

1295
00:58:30,000 --> 00:58:26,230
Alex well do it again one day I'll look

1296
00:58:31,800 --> 00:58:30,010
forward to it that'd be great thanks

1297
00:58:34,500 --> 00:58:31,810
again to Robert Bruce for joining me

1298
00:58:36,540 --> 00:58:34,510
today on skeptic oh I have a couple of

1299
00:58:39,030 --> 00:58:36,550
questions that I'd like to tee up from

1300
00:58:42,089 --> 00:58:39,040
this interview I really enjoyed talking

1301
00:58:43,680 --> 00:58:42,099
to Robert Bruce it took a while to line

1302
00:58:45,690 --> 00:58:43,690
up this interview but I'm really glad

1303
00:58:48,210 --> 00:58:45,700
that I waited it out and did it so

1304
00:58:52,560 --> 00:58:48,220
here's the first question that I tee up

1305
00:58:55,050 --> 00:58:52,570
for us and that is do we live in a demon

1306
00:58:57,870 --> 00:58:55,060
haunted world I mean here's a guy who

1307
00:59:00,240 --> 00:58:57,880
says he's traveled outside of his body

1308
00:59:03,540 --> 00:59:00,250
and experienced all sorts of things

1309
00:59:06,210 --> 00:59:03,550
demons angels all different things so I

1310
00:59:09,000 --> 00:59:06,220
try to ask this question to Chris Carter

1311
00:59:12,089 --> 00:59:09,010
in the previous episode but I really

1312
00:59:15,060 --> 00:59:12,099
didn't get much of an answer I think

1313
00:59:17,280 --> 00:59:15,070
this is really a key question I think

1314
00:59:20,550 --> 00:59:17,290
this is certainly at the heart of what

1315
00:59:22,800 --> 00:59:20,560
we call our culture war debate between

1316
00:59:24,359 --> 00:59:22,810
science and religion and that is this

1317
00:59:26,520 --> 00:59:24,369
question of you know do we have

1318
00:59:28,260 --> 00:59:26,530
something to be afraid of when we close

1319
00:59:30,329 --> 00:59:28,270
our eyes and lay our head down at night

1320
00:59:32,730 --> 00:59:30,339
are there demons or maybe on the

1321
00:59:35,130 --> 00:59:32,740
positive side angels that are out there

1322
00:59:37,260 --> 00:59:35,140
and have an influence on our life and

1323
00:59:38,440 --> 00:59:37,270
when Carl Sagan wrote that book that

1324
00:59:40,839 --> 00:59:38,450
demon haunted

1325
00:59:42,819 --> 00:59:40,849
world and talked about science being a

1326
00:59:44,920 --> 00:59:42,829
candle in the dark I think that's

1327
00:59:46,870 --> 00:59:44,930
obviously what he was getting at but of

1328
00:59:49,150 --> 00:59:46,880
course he never really asked the

1329
00:59:52,210 --> 00:59:49,160
question that I think at this point we

1330
00:59:56,200 --> 00:59:52,220
do need to revisit and ask and that is

1331
00:59:59,740 --> 00:59:56,210
is there a underlying reality to that

1332
01:00:02,740 --> 00:59:59,750
demon haunted world idea and that's the

1333
01:00:04,720 --> 01:00:02,750
question I'd ask here and the second

1334
01:00:07,180 --> 01:00:04,730
question and I'm sure this sparked your

1335
01:00:10,329 --> 01:00:07,190
interest you know it sparked mine and

1336
01:00:14,430 --> 01:00:10,339
that is should Robert Bruce be more

1337
01:00:16,930 --> 01:00:14,440
interested in proving his claims through

1338
01:00:18,970 --> 01:00:16,940
experimentation now I have to tell you

1339
01:00:21,490 --> 01:00:18,980
had one impression when I first hung up

1340
01:00:25,000 --> 01:00:21,500
with Robert Bruce and I thought wow why

1341
01:00:26,200 --> 01:00:25,010
is this guy so reluctant to do this and

1342
01:00:28,329 --> 01:00:26,210
I was really kind of suspicious

1343
01:00:29,470 --> 01:00:28,339
skeptical if you would and then when I

1344
01:00:30,970 --> 01:00:29,480
relist

1345
01:00:33,880 --> 01:00:30,980
to the interview during the editing

1346
01:00:37,359 --> 01:00:33,890
process I kind of came away with another

1347
01:00:41,620 --> 01:00:37,369
impression and I was struck by how much

1348
01:00:45,160 --> 01:00:41,630
influence James Randi has had on this

1349
01:00:47,319 --> 01:00:45,170
whole area of science or if you don't

1350
01:00:49,930 --> 01:00:47,329
want to go so far and to call it science

1351
01:00:52,630 --> 01:00:49,940
at least let's call it human experience

1352
01:00:54,460 --> 01:00:52,640
and what immediately came to mind is a

1353
01:00:55,780 --> 01:00:54,470
recent quote from Sam Harris that

1354
01:00:58,809 --> 01:00:55,790
someone brought to my attention where

1355
01:01:00,280 --> 01:00:58,819
Sam Harris was saying that you know that

1356
01:01:02,410 --> 01:01:00,290
Rupert Sheldrake he's a pretty good guy

1357
01:01:04,210 --> 01:01:02,420
but I'm a little bit suspicious of

1358
01:01:06,880 --> 01:01:04,220
Sheldrick because he doesn't want to

1359
01:01:10,720 --> 01:01:06,890
submit himself to the Randi challenge

1360
01:01:12,400 --> 01:01:10,730
and I thought wow here's a guy who you

1361
01:01:14,710 --> 01:01:12,410
know you know from previous episodes I

1362
01:01:16,300 --> 01:01:14,720
don't think Sam Harris is really kind of

1363
01:01:18,970 --> 01:01:16,310
on top of his game in terms of

1364
01:01:21,220 --> 01:01:18,980
understanding psy and understanding

1365
01:01:23,829 --> 01:01:21,230
extended consciousness but nonetheless

1366
01:01:26,859 --> 01:01:23,839
he's a pretty noteworthy intellectual

1367
01:01:29,589 --> 01:01:26,869
and for him to be totally bamboozled by

1368
01:01:31,839 --> 01:01:29,599
this same kind of Randi mystique I

1369
01:01:35,190 --> 01:01:31,849
thought was really interesting I mean I

1370
01:01:37,569 --> 01:01:35,200
mentioned in the podcast that Randy is

1371
01:01:40,000 --> 01:01:37,579
dishonest you know but I didn't really

1372
01:01:41,740 --> 01:01:40,010
break that down but I'll do that a

1373
01:01:43,900 --> 01:01:41,750
little bit here and of course if you've

1374
01:01:45,099 --> 01:01:43,910
listened to this show you may know where

1375
01:01:47,890 --> 01:01:45,109
I'm going with this

1376
01:01:52,329 --> 01:01:47,900
but it's been proven over and over again

1377
01:01:54,849 --> 01:01:52,339
that James Randi is not afraid to really

1378
01:01:57,160 --> 01:01:54,859
go out there and stretch the truth in

1379
01:01:59,769 --> 01:01:57,170
order to make his case in it stems from

1380
01:02:03,069 --> 01:01:59,779
the fact that I mean he's a professional

1381
01:02:05,950 --> 01:02:03,079
deceiver he's a magician that's okay I

1382
01:02:08,769 --> 01:02:05,960
get that we all when we go to a show we

1383
01:02:11,259 --> 01:02:08,779
submit to okay deceive me a little bit

1384
01:02:14,039 --> 01:02:11,269
here I want that but for smart folks

1385
01:02:16,779 --> 01:02:14,049
like Sam Harris or many other

1386
01:02:19,359 --> 01:02:16,789
intellectuals and scientists to think

1387
01:02:23,019 --> 01:02:19,369
that this kind of professional deception

1388
01:02:25,150 --> 01:02:23,029
has a place in science I gotta tell you

1389
01:02:27,819 --> 01:02:25,160
it just doesn't I mean proper controls

1390
01:02:30,959 --> 01:02:27,829
yes sure absolutely but this kind of

1391
01:02:34,569 --> 01:02:30,969
Hall of Mirrors ends justify the means

1392
01:02:36,069 --> 01:02:34,579
deception absolutely not and I'll give

1393
01:02:38,049 --> 01:02:36,079
you just a small example of this that

1394
01:02:40,509 --> 01:02:38,059
we've talked about in previous shows but

1395
01:02:42,459 --> 01:02:40,519
if you go back and you can easily follow

1396
01:02:44,620 --> 01:02:42,469
up on this and prove it to yourself and

1397
01:02:46,930 --> 01:02:44,630
do the research for yourself but way

1398
01:02:49,180 --> 01:02:46,940
back 20 30 years ago when Russell Targ

1399
01:02:50,559 --> 01:02:49,190
and he'll put off we're at Stanford

1400
01:02:53,170 --> 01:02:50,569
Research Institute and they were first

1401
01:02:55,420 --> 01:02:53,180
interested in parapsychology and they

1402
01:02:57,700 --> 01:02:55,430
had heree Geller come in and they did

1403
01:02:59,559 --> 01:02:57,710
these experiments with Uri Geller who

1404
01:03:02,259 --> 01:02:59,569
you may have all these kind of negative

1405
01:03:05,499 --> 01:03:02,269
ideas of but go back and watch the

1406
01:03:08,680 --> 01:03:05,509
original videotaping that they did of

1407
01:03:11,469 --> 01:03:08,690
early Geller and the testing that they

1408
01:03:13,900 --> 01:03:11,479
did and it's remarkable there's no fraud

1409
01:03:16,390 --> 01:03:13,910
involved and they did something really

1410
01:03:18,700 --> 01:03:16,400
simple like put dice in this metal box

1411
01:03:21,219 --> 01:03:18,710
you know the kind you keep index cards

1412
01:03:22,719 --> 01:03:21,229
in of the old index cards and they shake

1413
01:03:24,910 --> 01:03:22,729
it and they'd say okay what is the dice

1414
01:03:26,979 --> 01:03:24,920
a and re Geller would guess it right

1415
01:03:29,289 --> 01:03:26,989
time after time like ten in a row we did

1416
01:03:30,999 --> 01:03:29,299
and this is a really simple experiment

1417
01:03:33,309 --> 01:03:31,009
you don't need a lot of extra controls

1418
01:03:35,259 --> 01:03:33,319
they own the index box they own the dice

1419
01:03:36,459 --> 01:03:35,269
he never touched him he never saw him

1420
01:03:37,930 --> 01:03:36,469
you know you shake it can you guess

1421
01:03:40,509 --> 01:03:37,940
what's inside of it really you don't

1422
01:03:43,420 --> 01:03:40,519
need a lot extra controls so when James

1423
01:03:46,180 --> 01:03:43,430
Randi went to debunk this what he did

1424
01:03:48,789 --> 01:03:46,190
was he just invented this story in

1425
01:03:51,670 --> 01:03:48,799
saying that the videographer a guy named

1426
01:03:53,859 --> 01:03:51,680
Pressman had admitted that they staged

1427
01:03:56,049 --> 01:03:53,869
the whole thing and that Pressman said

1428
01:03:58,089 --> 01:03:56,059
that it wasn't real and they faked it

1429
01:04:00,430 --> 01:03:58,099
and I had videotaped it and I saw it and

1430
01:04:03,489 --> 01:04:00,440
James Randi published this in his book

1431
01:04:06,050 --> 01:04:03,499
it was a complete lie a complete

1432
01:04:08,180 --> 01:04:06,060
fabrication Pressman

1433
01:04:10,040 --> 01:04:08,190
really upset he said no that's not true

1434
01:04:12,080 --> 01:04:10,050
I was there i videotaped the whole thing

1435
01:04:14,030 --> 01:04:12,090
I never made up this story about it and

1436
01:04:15,980 --> 01:04:14,040
being untrue or being fake

1437
01:04:17,990 --> 01:04:15,990
he said I'll say this in court I'll do

1438
01:04:21,560 --> 01:04:18,000
an affidavit whatever you want it's not

1439
01:04:24,800 --> 01:04:21,570
true but did James Randi have his

1440
01:04:28,970 --> 01:04:24,810
desired effect did he somehow taint that

1441
01:04:31,940 --> 01:04:28,980
work he did he certainly did he created

1442
01:04:34,190 --> 01:04:31,950
this kind of Hall of Mirrors deception

1443
01:04:36,710 --> 01:04:34,200
who can you really trust kind of thing

1444
01:04:40,040 --> 01:04:36,720
and he somehow advanced this idea that

1445
01:04:42,680 --> 01:04:40,050
only he the deceiver could really find

1446
01:04:45,880 --> 01:04:42,690
out other deceivers this is really kind

1447
01:04:48,170 --> 01:04:45,890
of a mixed up psychology but it's

1448
01:04:50,690 --> 01:04:48,180
unbelievable to the extent that it's

1449
01:04:53,120 --> 01:04:50,700
worked and I think in this case with

1450
01:04:55,910 --> 01:04:53,130
Robert Bruce who is on the show here you

1451
01:04:58,640 --> 01:04:55,920
can see the fruits of this in terms of

1452
01:05:01,160 --> 01:04:58,650
science Robert Bruce whether you go into

1453
01:05:04,580 --> 01:05:01,170
it thinking that Robert Bruce is for

1454
01:05:07,430 --> 01:05:04,590
real or not don't you want to know if

1455
01:05:09,740 --> 01:05:07,440
his claims are true don't you want to

1456
01:05:12,470 --> 01:05:09,750
know if he really can travel outside of

1457
01:05:15,110 --> 01:05:12,480
his body and see and experience things

1458
01:05:17,120 --> 01:05:15,120
in another dimension I mean of course

1459
01:05:19,910 --> 01:05:17,130
you that's a rhetorical question of

1460
01:05:22,670 --> 01:05:19,920
course we do that's a fundamental

1461
01:05:24,800 --> 01:05:22,680
question as to the nature of who we are

1462
01:05:26,660 --> 01:05:24,810
so we have a strong vested interest in

1463
01:05:28,790 --> 01:05:26,670
knowing whether or not that's true and

1464
01:05:33,110 --> 01:05:28,800
therefore don't we want the best

1465
01:05:34,850 --> 01:05:33,120
possible experiment to prove that or to

1466
01:05:37,640 --> 01:05:34,860
disprove it or just to learn as much

1467
01:05:40,190 --> 01:05:37,650
about it as we can again of course you

1468
01:05:42,830 --> 01:05:40,200
do and so therefore we want an

1469
01:05:45,700 --> 01:05:42,840
environment and that includes the

1470
01:05:48,050 --> 01:05:45,710
scientific culture and the welcoming of

1471
01:05:50,780 --> 01:05:48,060
researchers and the welcoming of their

1472
01:05:52,100 --> 01:05:50,790
results in order to foster an

1473
01:05:54,590 --> 01:05:52,110
environment where people feel

1474
01:05:56,840 --> 01:05:54,600
comfortable pursuing these questions in

1475
01:05:58,520 --> 01:05:56,850
any way they can and publishing the

1476
01:06:00,440 --> 01:05:58,530
results and being public about their

1477
01:06:02,900 --> 01:06:00,450
results in what we have is a situation

1478
01:06:05,150 --> 01:06:02,910
that's just the opposite of that we have

1479
01:06:08,030 --> 01:06:05,160
a situation where it's a very very

1480
01:06:10,430 --> 01:06:08,040
unfriendly environment one to do this

1481
01:06:13,070 --> 01:06:10,440
research you will be ostracized or you

1482
01:06:14,990 --> 01:06:13,080
will lose your job or both and then to

1483
01:06:17,570 --> 01:06:15,000
publish your research or to say that you

1484
01:06:19,460 --> 01:06:17,580
found this is equally or maybe even more

1485
01:06:19,910 --> 01:06:19,470
dangerous than the first although if you

1486
01:06:21,020 --> 01:06:19,920
can't get

1487
01:06:23,329 --> 01:06:21,030
the first you can't really get to the

1488
01:06:26,059 --> 01:06:23,339
second anyway and I think to a large

1489
01:06:29,720 --> 01:06:26,069
extent we can trace a lot of this back

1490
01:06:32,000 --> 01:06:29,730
to one guy and I guess he wears that as

1491
01:06:33,710 --> 01:06:32,010
a badge of honor that he's created this

1492
01:06:36,289 --> 01:06:33,720
kind of environment but he's been

1493
01:06:39,470 --> 01:06:36,299
incredibly effective at it and it's had

1494
01:06:42,650 --> 01:06:39,480
a very chilling effect so back to that

1495
01:06:44,500 --> 01:06:42,660
question then I guess I came away with a

1496
01:06:47,960 --> 01:06:44,510
greater appreciation for the real

1497
01:06:51,500 --> 01:06:47,970
pitfalls for someone like Robert Bruce

1498
01:06:53,210 --> 01:06:51,510
to say yeah I'll put myself totally out

1499
01:06:55,640 --> 01:06:53,220
there I'll put my reputation on the line

1500
01:06:57,500 --> 01:06:55,650
and go through some experimentation

1501
01:06:59,210 --> 01:06:57,510
process and I think there's also the

1502
01:07:01,370 --> 01:06:59,220
other parts that he mentioned about that

1503
01:07:03,859 --> 01:07:01,380
that are problematic in particular

1504
01:07:06,349 --> 01:07:03,869
what's there really to be gained how

1505
01:07:08,329 --> 01:07:06,359
will one experiment change anything or

1506
01:07:10,640 --> 01:07:08,339
prove anything and then there's the

1507
01:07:12,380 --> 01:07:10,650
relationship between the experimenter I

1508
01:07:14,690 --> 01:07:12,390
mean what someone like Robert Bruce is

1509
01:07:17,240 --> 01:07:14,700
supposed to do thoroughly vet the

1510
01:07:18,650 --> 01:07:17,250
researcher find out how they're gonna do

1511
01:07:19,849 --> 01:07:18,660
the experiment how it's going to be

1512
01:07:21,789 --> 01:07:19,859
published whether they're going to be

1513
01:07:25,549 --> 01:07:21,799
treated fairly and all the rest of that

1514
01:07:28,520 --> 01:07:25,559
it's really more complicated than it

1515
01:07:31,579 --> 01:07:28,530
might seem that doesn't mean that I

1516
01:07:34,190 --> 01:07:31,589
don't think that he should go that extra

1517
01:07:37,400 --> 01:07:34,200
mile to establish some scientific

1518
01:07:39,349 --> 01:07:37,410
validity to what he does to explore to

1519
01:07:41,569 --> 01:07:39,359
whatever extent he can because I think

1520
01:07:44,270 --> 01:07:41,579
that's definitely has to happen I think

1521
01:07:47,720 --> 01:07:44,280
that advances this conversation I think

1522
01:07:49,700 --> 01:07:47,730
that has the potential of changing the

1523
01:07:51,440 --> 01:07:49,710
culture even if it's just a tiny bit

1524
01:07:54,170 --> 01:07:51,450
even if that isn't going to create some

1525
01:07:57,049 --> 01:07:54,180
big paradigm shift we have to continue

1526
01:08:00,049 --> 01:07:57,059
to push that Boulder up the mountain I

1527
01:08:03,020 --> 01:08:00,059
think and and scientific experiments I

1528
01:08:05,569 --> 01:08:03,030
think can do that but I've gone on and

1529
01:08:08,079 --> 01:08:05,579
on the question is the same should

1530
01:08:11,960 --> 01:08:08,089
Robert Bruce be more open to

1531
01:08:14,180 --> 01:08:11,970
experimentation so two questions to toss

1532
01:08:18,820 --> 01:08:14,190
around of course the place to do that is

1533
01:08:21,439 --> 01:08:18,830
at the skeptic Oh website at ske pti

1534
01:08:23,300 --> 01:08:21,449
koat.com you can link on over to our

1535
01:08:25,729 --> 01:08:23,310
forums and talk about it where we get

1536
01:08:27,769 --> 01:08:25,739
quite a dialogue going usually or leave

1537
01:08:29,360 --> 01:08:27,779
a comment right there on the website of

1538
01:08:32,780 --> 01:08:29,370
course while you're there you can also

1539
01:08:33,740 --> 01:08:32,790
listen to over 200 previous episodes of

1540
01:08:34,789 --> 01:08:33,750
skeptical

1541
01:08:36,980 --> 01:08:34,799
and check out some of the other

1542
01:08:39,079 --> 01:08:36,990
information we have their email Facebook

1543
01:08:41,360 --> 01:08:39,089
linked to me I may even put up a link to

1544
01:08:43,670 --> 01:08:41,370
some upcoming shows so you know what's

1545
01:08:45,950 --> 01:08:43,680
coming around the bend well this has

1546
01:08:47,599 --> 01:08:45,960
been another long episode but there is

1547
01:08:49,700 --> 01:08:47,609
so much stuff to talk about in

1548
01:08:51,200 --> 01:08:49,710
especially if you go listen to Andy

1549
01:08:52,640 --> 01:08:51,210
Paquette and Graham Nichols which I

1550
01:08:54,829 --> 01:08:52,650
really encourage you to do then you have

1551
01:08:57,050 --> 01:08:54,839
a lot of listening to do so we'll give

1552
01:08:58,999 --> 01:08:57,060
you a couple extra days to catch up on

1553
01:09:00,829 --> 01:08:59,009
that before your next episode of skeptic

1554
01:09:02,690 --> 01:09:00,839
oh but I do hope you come back for that